My assassin finally made rank 6 the other day, and while looking up my new skills and talents I noticed that Assassins strike makes no mention as to which attack action can gain the benefit of the talent, it only says " whenever you engage an opponent and make a melee attack... ". So then you should be able to make two Acrobatics tests when attacking with two weapons or using swift attack, and three times when using lightning attack. Has anyone had experience with this talent in action and how was it used?

Thoughts and interpretations from everyone is of course always appreciated!

xenobiotica said:

Not had the talent appear in game yet, so I'm not certain. There is a certain appeal in having a multi-attacking character dart around as he attacks (take Full-Attack Action, make first attack, attempt Acrobatics test to move, then, having moved, make second attack, then make Acrobatics test to move, make third attack, then make final Acrobatics test to move).

It would, amongst other things, make the Lictor in Creatures Anathema even more dangerous: if calculated properly, it's half move is 14m, and between Lightning Attack and Multiple Arms, it has 4 attacks... meaning that it can rip apart a group of enemies, darting between each foe before vanishing into cover again, ready to Conceal itself next turn, or start sprinting to relocate - Sprint, AB5, Size (Enormous) and Unnatural Speed result in a top speed of 62 mph, sustainable by a TB6 creature for up to 35 seconds.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

It is indeed an appealing thought, and since Assassins Strike is limited to Assassins and Templar Calix Psykers it can be reserved for the "elite", if you will.

I haven't read much of Creatures Anathema and I know I haven't read about Lictors. It certainly sounds like a nasty speciment. But wouldn't Lightning Attack and Multiple (4?) Arms enable it to attack 6 times? 3 with Lighning Attack and one additional attack for every arm? Or doesn't the Multiple Attack Action support Swift/Lightning Attack? If it doesn't, what would be the purpose of having Lightning Attack if you already have Multiple Arms which gives you 2 more attacks when using the Multiple Attack Action?

xenobiotica said:

Personal interpretation - it grants two attacks (1 more than normal) on a multiple attacks action, just like fighting with two weapons, and in the case of two-weapon fighting, the bonus attack is granted after the effects of Lightning/Swift Attack, so it seems entirely reasonable to apply Multiple Arms in the same way, rather than render it obsolete or use it to multiply attacks or anything else.

Regardless, that isn't the only benefit Multiple Arms provides (there's also the matter of +10 to all movement-related Strength tests, like climbing or swimming), so it could be ruled either way. It is, afterall, a trait, not a talent, so it doesn't have to be balanced against the abilities normally accessible to Player Characters...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

It seems I remembered the words of the Multiple Attack Action wrong. It specifically mentions Swift/Lightning Attack, as well as fighting with a weapon in each hand. If everyone is allowed to attack with both their hands, why should a creature with four arm only be allowed to attack with three of them? You would of course still need the appropriate Two Weapon Wielder talent to do it (I assume Lictors have it?) and it would impose a -20 penalty to WS (-10 if you have Ambidexterity), so there is a drawback in doing it. That's why even a creature with four arms can use Swift/Lightning Attack to attack twice/three times without any penalties. (And I just realised that I'm contradicting my last sentence in my previous post, but that question just came from me not thinking before writing, my oppinion about creatures with four arms getting six attacks with Lightning Attack still stands.)

I did not mean to ignore the other benefits of the Multiple Arms trait, but since creatures can have the same talents as player characters, the traits will still have to be balanced against those talents.

In the space marines game i am running, i personally just give an extra attack for having the multiple arms trait.

for example, genestealers would get up to 5 attacks as a full round action (3 for lightning attack, 1 for mult arms, 1 for off hand) all at -10 ws for fighting with 2 weapons (and not having two weapon fighting) or 4 attacks (no off hand) at base ws.

just my own personal way of running them. as far as assassins strike, id like to hear more peoples thoughts about it. i just bought it for my assassin but havent used it yet. honestly i debated buying it as it doesnt seem very useful to attack and move 2 squares (1/2 my assassins move). maybe if im moving into cover?

Smokes said:

Either your Assassin is painfully slow, or you're misreading the rule. Assassin Strike lets you move your Half Move rate (in most cases, equal to your Agility Bonus; the same distance you move if you spend a Half Action on movement) with a successful Acrobatics test after a melee attack. Assuming an Agility in the 40s, that's a 4m move after an attack; if you (or your GM, as applicable) allow it to trigger multiple times per turn, that's a considerable amount of movement when done after each attack - if you've got Lightning Attack and are wielding two weapons, that's 4 seperate moves, potentially, for a total of 16m overall.

Having thought on it, I'm personally all for Assassin's Strike triggering multiple times per turn - it seems entirely appropriate for the kinds of characters who'd be able to do such things and allows an agile melee character a useful advantage when surrounded by enemies, making them able to remain in motion and dart away from, past or around enemies as they fight.

The text of Assassin's Strike reads:

"Whenever you engage an opponent and make a melee attack, you may make an acrobatics test to move at your half move rate as a free action."

I have always read that as meaning that you can only use it when you first engage the opponent, i.e. move into combat, meaning the multiple attacks action cannot be taken. And I have to say, I always thought that was a pretty underpowered talent, which makes me think maybe the interpretation others are using could be right.

But... being able to move after every attack seems fantastically overpowered to me. The main limitation on melee fighters is that they can only make one attack when they move, so the only way they can take down multiple opponents in a round is if they are standing close together (charge, then next round multiple attack). With this, you can multiple attack against people who are up to 12m apart (if you have lightning attack and two-weapon wielder) - and then you can disengage after the final attack for free!

Do we really think the talent is intended to allow you to make (effectively) a double move and multiple attack in the same action? 'Cause that's what this interpretation would allow.

Cardinalsin said:

Given that a dual-wielding gunslinger with Hipshooting can make two attacks and a double move all at once, I don't think that's much of a problem, especially as hipshooting and two-weapon wielder (ballistic) are far more readily available abilities than Assassin's Strike, and can be used from significantly greater distances (Assassin's Strike does require you to get into melee in the first place). Further, Assassin's Strike exists in only three ranks in the entire game so far - Death Adept (Rank 6 Assassin, just after the split), Moritat Reaper (alternate rank that replaces Death Adept), and Templar Calix (where it costs three times as much as it does for an Assassin and requires a minimum Ag of 40, which is very expensive for a Psyker to purchase).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

ah I was thinking half move was half of your movement rate (2 for an agility of 40). i wasnt thinking of a half action move (full agility move)

In general I'm all for allowing combinations of Talents to enable highly trained and competent characters to do cool and cinematic stuff in combat, but I think this one is going a bit too far, and entering the realm of 'abusing the rules'.

If you have Lightning Attack and Two Weapon Wielder, and are armed with two melee weapons for a total of 4 attacks, allowing the movement benefit of Assassin Strike after every attack is, in my opinion, stretching things a bit. If the Assassin has Agility 40+ and gets to move those 4m four times, he's going to move a total of 16m, which is more than his normal Charge movement.

I'd say that you only get the Assassin Strike movement once. So if you are in melee you can use all of your Lightning Attack hits then make your Assassin Strike move only once. I'd even allow you to make two of your melee attacks, make your Assassin Strike permitted movement, then make your other two melee attacks. But I'd never allow moving more than once.

I would think it would be more a matter of when you engage the opponent.

You move in, engage, lightning attack and use the extra attack from two weapon wielder, then disengage and move away with assassin's strike. I would agree with Savage.

The case finally came up in our session today. After a discussion with my GM we decided to follow Savage's suggestion of getting one oppertunity each round of using Assassins Strike, if attacking more than once in a round, you can make your acrobatics test after one of your attacks and move, if you didn't make all your possible attacks you can continue after your move as long as you're engaged with an opponent.

The example of the lictor kind of made it clear that the rules could otherwise be sverely abused. It worked well and I gotta say I was pretty pleased with the results. I would reccomend the ruling for anyone else who intend to use the talent.

I'd have to check closer to be sure, but I expect it is meant to apply to an attack Action, not each attack. You can only make a single Attack Action per round, although that Attack Action might allow multiple attacks (like Swift/Lightning attack).

Well, it clearly says "attack" not "attack action".

My interpretation, especially since the description reads "leaping and spiralling (...) like some butcher ballerina.", is that you may move after every attack you make, if you succeed in your acrobatics test. So yes, 4 moves are possible.

But to avoid unbalancing I'd limit the total distance moved to the characters "Run" distance and call for a toughness test with fatigue as penalty, if you succeed in more "jumps" than your toughness bonus per round.

Opinions please.

It probably does say just 'attack'. I said I think the intent was 'attack action'. I believe in the errata there was a similar place where the original text said just 'attack' but the errata clarified that the intent was actually 'attack action' (although I could be wrong. I'm too lazy right now to check the errata to see where (and if) I'm remembering that.

Either that, or it's as CardiinalSin suggested, that it only involves the initial 'engage' + attack of a target. So, essentially, the first turn of a melee combat (unless a new opponent is engaged and attacked in a turn). Pretty much means once per opponent per combat ... which seems like it could be a reasonable limit.