Hoi All,

Recently I have been re-reading the Rogue Squadron novells and the depictions of the space dogfights got me thinking. About 70% of the TIE kills the Alliance pilots make is due to them blasting the "wings" of the TIE's apart. I am not differentiating between the various TIE fighter types. There's mention of Interceptors with shields or hyperdrives but rather as an exception, so we are left with an underprotected, no hyperjumpable, low armed eyeball, squint or dupe.

What I can't figure out is why you would want to keep equipping your forces with such fragile and rather defenseless craft anyway? Is this something like the WW2 Sherman doctrine? i.e. the Tiger is far superior but for any Tiger they can put in the field we have 100 Shermans?

Quantity has a quality all its own.

Plus, it makes a philosophical point about how the Empire feels about its people - replaceable.

It's probably more like the T-34 versus the Tiger.

Also, think about the type of enemy the Empire was expecting to face: civilians with outmoded fighters like the Z-95 and R-41 Starchaser. The TIE Fighter was top-of-the-line until the INCOM Corporation developed the X-wing, which used exotic alloys and focused on durability and firepower rather than cheapness. Until that fighter got dropped into the hands of the Alliance, the TIE Fighter was the most advanced fighter on the front lines, able to out-maneuver everything and get behind them to blast them with high-output laser cannons. They could out-maneuver the X-wing as well, but the difference was that the X-wing could survive long enough to destroy the TIE Fighter.

They could out-maneuver the X-wing as well, but the difference was that the X-wing could survive long enough to destroy the TIE Fighter.

Yeah that's true alright, kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if the Empire would have put the TIE Defender into mass production before the destruction of the second Death Star...

LOL....the t34 was superior to the sherman... ....I would think the sherman is a better illustration....

LOL....the t34 was superior to the sherman... ....I would think the sherman is a better illustration....

But we're not simply talking about the quality of the vehicle, we're talking about production factors. The T-34 was far and away the most produced tank of the war, and apparently the second most produced tank of all time. Yeah, I'd say it's a better analogue of the TIE fighter than the Sherman.

Don't forget that the books are about rogue sqadron, usually fighting non-elite tie pilots. I assume tie fighters do better against against average x-wing squadrons.

Ties definitely perform better in the films than they do in computer games, where they're usually set up by the programmers as cannon fodder.

Don't forget that the books are about rogue sqadron, usually fighting non-elite tie pilots. I assume tie fighters do better against against average x-wing squadrons.

Ties definitely perform better in the films than they do in computer games, where they're usually set up by the programmers as cannon fodder.

talking about Rogue squadron, If one was planning to recreate the squad in scale, where would one obtain the colourschemes of the 12 x-wings?

http://www.moddb.com/games/fate-of-the-galaxy/images/rogue-squadrons-colour-schemes9#imagebox

I looked around and found this site. It seems to have many of the paint jobs of those particular Rogues that participated in the Bacta War. It would be awesome to paint a squadron of X-wings into Rogue Squadron, i'd love to see it!

It's probably more like the T-34 versus the Tiger.

35,000 T-34 tanks were manufactured from may 1940-may 1945

roughly between 49,000 -55,000 Sherman's were built, with a large number of those tanks being given to Russia, and the U.K. for Lend-Lease.

LOL....the t34 was superior to the sherman... ....I would think the sherman is a better illustration....

"Superior" is purely subjective. Where the Sherman had slightly thicker armor, the T-34 had a lower profile and better sloping. It was also one of the most mobile tanks of the war, able to maneuver through terrain that other tanks could not. That's a pretty significant parallel, I think.

But we're not simply talking about the quality of the vehicle, we're talking about production factors. The T-34 was far and away the most produced tank of the war, and apparently the second most produced tank of all time. Yeah, I'd say it's a better analogue of the TIE fighter than the Sherman.

When the Sherman was deployed to Africa in 1942 it was superior to the German Panzer III and early Panzer Iv's

In terms of the T-34 being better than the Sherman. The T-34 had a better gun at first a 76.2 mm HV gun, where the Sherman had only a 75 MM. Later Sherman models Like the M4A3 for example, which had "Sloped" frontal armor basically Made it superior to the T-34. But also, by the time the Sherman M4A3 can into production the Russians had more or less stopped upgrading the T-34 Line. They went to a newer model all together the T-34-85.

I would not make the similarities about tanks from WWII but the aircraft. Tie fighters would be like the Zero, and the x-wing would be like the P47 Thunderbolt. The Zero was built for maneuverability and speed, with little consideration for pilot safety. The P47 had an armoured cockpit and was slower and less maneuverable than a zero, but could take hits and keep on flying.

It comes down to the philosophy of the two factions. The Empire believed it could use quick, fast, unarmoured fighters en mass to win, while the Rebellion used slower but tougher and more durable fighters to ensure victory.

If your side has pilots able to return to base and sortie again, odds are you are going to win a war. Nobody wins a war with rookie pilots.

There seem to be a number of squadrons of Academy pilots around who would disagree....

I'll also say the P-47 may be more analogous to the Y-Wing as opposed to the X-Wing. The X-Wing gets the P-51 comparison.

It's probably more like the T-34 versus the Tiger.

35,000 T-34 tanks were manufactured from may 1940-may 1945

roughly between 49,000 -55,000 Sherman's were built, with a large number of those tanks being given to Russia, and the U.K. for Lend-Lease.

Depending on the source, I see... somewhere between 58,000 and 85,000 T-34 tanks having been built, that figure being inclusive of all variants (76, 85). Also, I cannot find a single site that says that more Shermans were produced. The exception, of course, being some rather heated discussions on many another message board.

I'm out of town, sadly, so I don't have my Osprey's handy. I hate getting info from the interwebs...

TIE's were meant to be used in conjuction with capitol ships and or Turbolasers from ground based targets. They rely heavily on numbers, where as the X-wing was meant to be a self sustaining fighter. Look at the scene when the Emperor arrives in ROTJ. There were thousands of them flying by. The rebels mounted an attack of 30 ships against the first Death Star. Had they been less overconfident, they could have overwhelmed the rebellion with sheer numbers.

Capital ships are the key. The TIE fighter is not the backbone of the Imperial fleet, that role belongs to the Star Destroyer, and very few capital ships used by the rebels (or any other factions) could compete with them head to head.

TIEs are cheap, replaceable, maneuverable, and numerous, and they are more than enough for most purposes (basic supply and VIP escort, policing systems against pirates and smugglers, etc). They might get wrecked 1v1 with an X-wing but who cares when you have literally hundreds of thousands of them and completely unmatched naval tonnage and firepower.

In truth, if it wasnt for the storyline of it all needing the rebellion to win, they would never had a chance in hell of winning. The Empire had way over 1000 Star Destroyers and Billions of tie fighters along with hundreds of millions of other capital scale ships. It makes for a great story though.

The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers....

Quantity has a quality all its own...

If an X-Wing can take 2 TIEs on and win, but you send 10 TIEs, he should die with at most the loss of a single TIE. In that case, you lost a single cheap TIE for the loss of a single very expensive X-Wing. If the X-Wing costs twice as much you have a net win, regardless.

Also, the Rebels were able to choose targets. They only needed enough ships to hit a single location of their choosing, were concerned with using as few bases as possible, and had very limited manpower. Under those circumstances a hyper capable expensive fighter gave them the most bang for their buck.

The Empire on the other hand had to garrison EVERY WORLD in the Empire, with ships sufficient to protect them. That sort of thing just isn't feasible if your fighters are individually expensive.

http://www.moddb.com/games/fate-of-the-galaxy/images/rogue-squadrons-colour-schemes9#imagebox

I looked around and found this site. It seems to have many of the paint jobs of those particular Rogues that participated in the Bacta War. It would be awesome to paint a squadron of X-wings into Rogue Squadron, i'd love to see it!

A great site indeed, but during the Bacta war, Rogue Squadron wasn't flying as an official Alliance unit. They were more of a Merc unit at this point. So while painting a squadron up like this would indeed seem awesome it's use on the tabletop would be rather limited...

Quantity has a quality all its own

The Empire on the other hand had to garrison EVERY WORLD in the Empire, with ships sufficient to protect them. That sort of thing just isn't feasible if your fighters are individually expensive.

While much of what you say is totaaly true, I still think the fact the TIE Interceptor and Defender were developped is contradictory to your last statement. Both were more allround fighters and, seeing their capabilities more expensive. The reference of the TIE to the Japanese Zero holds up also in the mental state of the TIE-pilot, what self respeting fighterpilot would willingly get into a craft which would reduce his/ her survival chance with 50%? Either they would be deluded by Imperial propaganda or be fanatically loyal.

If Imperial Satelite states like Correllia (CORSEC) was able to buy a fleet of X-wings, then why wouldn't the Empire? (if not for real-world movie esthetics..)

Many reasons I could see the TIE was used.

1. cheap to buy, maintain, and transport

2. fear factor due to numbers.

3. prevent defection of rebellious pilots with their ships

and off topic the t-34 and variants was produced way after world war II and sold to many countries. a lot of the tanks you see in world war II movies are converted t-34's. I would say more t-34's and variants were made overall then the Sherman. Now the argument could be made that the comparison is just the t-34 original and the Sherman and I would say you would need to pick one model of Sherman because otherwise your comparison is not being fair as the Sherman was constantly upgraded too. And really the t-34 design and specs more closely resemble the TIE as in easy to make, mobile, and little crew skill required to use.

Quantity has a quality all its own

The Empire on the other hand had to garrison EVERY WORLD in the Empire, with ships sufficient to protect them. That sort of thing just isn't feasible if your fighters are individually expensive.

While much of what you say is totaaly true, I still think the fact the TIE Interceptor and Defender were developped is contradictory to your last statement. Both were more allround fighters and, seeing their capabilities more expensive. The reference of the TIE to the Japanese Zero holds up also in the mental state of the TIE-pilot, what self respeting fighterpilot would willingly get into a craft which would reduce his/ her survival chance with 50%? Either they would be deluded by Imperial propaganda or be fanatically loyal.

If Imperial Satelite states like Correllia (CORSEC) was able to buy a fleet of X-wings, then why wouldn't the Empire? (if not for real-world movie esthetics..)

You wouldn't want a Navy made up of nothing but battleships, because you couldn't build enough of them to be everywhere you wanted to be. On the other hand, it is still good to have a few of them in order to have the firepower when you want it. The fact that the Empire built high-end TIEs (Adv, Interceptor, Defender) for specific purposes does not in any way contradict the idea that they needed inexpensive but decent TIEs to cover the rest of the Empire.

As far as the fleet of X-Wings, consider that at any point if the Rebels had attempted to take on even a significant percentage of the Imperial Navy they would have been crushed in seconds. Those Rebel worlds managed to build enough fighters and/or capital ships in order to make a difference in one or two battles, which is a dramatically different thing than building enough ships to take on the entire Imperial Navy.

You don't need a ship that is great at everything. You just need a ship that is good enough.