Both are low distance spray weapons.

At the moment though, the shotgun seems really weak compared to the flamers.

Flamers do more damage and additionally set on fire.

I think, shotguns would need an additional benefit which makes them also feel more like a shotgun.

Maybe a trait that makes more damage or on thenwound table on point blank ?

"If the target is no more than 3m away, this weapons does +5 on the wound table, if the target is wounded"

That wouldnt be too bad for a shotgun and underline its use in narrow space and against closing up opponents.

I'm vary wary of balancing weapons with each other. Some weapons should out and out be better than others. Especially in 40k! I need weapons for the hive scum, I need players to have something to channel their greed toward. Equipment is a big part of who someone is in 40k. I also actually think a flamer should be more dangerous than a shotgun. At least one filled with shot which is what we're talking about here. High speed flying pellets or a jet of napalm? Which would you choose?

The thing is, there's currently no REASON to choose a shotgun. It's not easier to acquire than a flamer. I think the shotgun should be a viable option for low level play, just like the flamer is. Currently it has the advantage of multiple ammo types, but that isn't a lot.

I like GauntZero's idea of damaging more at point blank. Perhaps just outright add an extra d10 damage, though? Increases chance of RF, which is always good.

Thats a Great Idea.

It could indeed get +1d10 damage on point blank.

Alternatively it could get another blasting trait on point blank like Concussive (1).

By thinking of it, this could be quite cool.

Charging into melee with me ? Forget it ! SNap Fire with my shotgun in the face ! Dazed by Concussive + Damage !

This would give the shotgun an interesting role, and would still not make the flamer invalid !

I am just inscensed at the idea of shotgun with spray. Shotguns just don't work that way. Not saying the old shotguns were exactly realistic, but you don't fill an entire corridor with buckshot when you fire a shotgun.

Oh, and the way spray works is really odd. With a weapon which apparently sprays buckshot over a 30 degree cone you make a single attack roll and then either hit or miss depending on that? What does a miss represent exactly? Pointing the gun into the air and shooting up in to the sky? And you apparently do this roughly half the time? Ok, I guess they wanted to cut down on the number of rolls, but the end result is... well, bizarre as any attempt to replicate any form of reality.

Yeah, I find it to be a rather odd ruling. I'd rather have it that you can effect one enemy in the area for each DoS on the test. Not sure how they'd be selected, probably based on who's closest.

Why not introduce a new Shotgun trait instead of spra

, which says the following:

Chose 1 of 3 settings (can be changed with 1 AP):

- low scatter: only one target can be shot at, but gets concussive at point blank; damage +2

- medium scatter: up to 2 targets who are max. 3m from each other can be shot at the same time (one attack against both)

- wide scatter: up to 3 targets who are max. 5m from each other can be shot at the same time (one attack against all 3); damage -2

Honestly, just add a Slug ammo type, then you can have the best of both worlds in a fairly logical way.

If you go this way, you still have the initial problem of the shotgun effectively being a weaker version of the flamer

Well I'd propose a change to the statline of the shotgun as well, to make it so both options are viable. I think a good thing to focus on with Shotguns is versatility. They have access to most special ammo types, which already builds that up pretty well.

I think it could be a good idea to include that one special quality the Arbites shotgun has in Book of Judgement. Spend 1 (maybe 2) AP to chamber in a single round of whatever type you have available. Means you can easily change up what you're shooting to suit the situation. It'd make the shotgun a brilliant choice for someone who wants a lot of versatility.

That would be an option.

Maybe having Scattering ammunition that has the spray trait, and alternatively having slug ammunition that loses the spray trait but that is concussive and maybe has slightly higher damage (I think the current shotgun damage is a little low)

Low damage makes sense for shot. The old damage was a bit high, unless you presumed that even a basic hit presumed that a noticeable portion of the shot hit your target, and the point blank bonus just really represented almost all of it hitting the target.

Maybe the slug damage could be 1d10+4 like the old one.

Agreed - but add also concussive to slug on point blank range for the cool effect of it.

"The user may opt to handload a single shotgun shell into the specially designed tube magazine on their turn as an action which costs 2 AP. This shotgun shell may be of a different type to the other shells in the gun, but must be the next shell fired from the weapon"

Add this rule to the shotgun, along with a new type of round;

Solid Slug

Some users prefer a more focused, high impact round to the unpredictable scatter of typical shotgun shells. The slug fills this niche, replacing the burst of shotgun pellets with a single solid metal slug.

Effect: Weapon loses the Spray quality. Increase damage by 2, penetration by 1, and double range.

Used With: Shotgun

Avl: -10 (Same as shotgun)

That'd give the weapon a fair bit more versatility, for sure. With the slug, the shotgun effectively becomes a slightly less penetrating handcannon, damage output wise. The hand loading rule means carrying around a bunch of specialised rounds would be very useful. Bleeder rounds to sap enemies, inferno shells for when you need a quick burst of flame but don't have a flamer on hand, scrambler rounds for unusual enemies, etc.

I was just about to start a thread about the shotgun but you beat me to it GauntZero :-) Fair enough, here's my view on the subject:

1) Spray really should be reserved for weapons that spew liquid over the opponent and allowes the firer to move the muzzle side to side while shooting (like flamers and nurgles vomit).
Calculating the spread viewing the arc of fire as a triangle with a top angle of 30* and a heigth (range of the weapon) of 30m gives the shotgun a maximum spread of 16 meters. (not to mention the shuriken catapult a whooping 96m)
In my view a more reasonable approach would be to simply give the shotgun blast (1). Then of course it still remains underpowered.

2) The next thing would be to balance damage. Personaly I think a shotgun is something you bring to pack a punch (at least for lower levels). 1d10+4 pen 0 seems balanced to me, considering each enemy might be hit with severel pellets. Remember also that military grade buck shot usually have a few heavy pellets rather than many small ones (just internet wisdom, Im not a hunter)

3) Lost you key? Bring a shotgun! A special ability for breaking up doors and wrecking cover is something that could make the shotgun stand out. I would love to see the shotgun inheriting the arbitrator background ability (giving the arbitrator something that makes more sense like interrogation/investigation bonus) = +2 damage against cover (maybe even increasing this to +4 but thats a game testing question).

I agree that SPray is not the best way to handle the scattering effect of shotguns, but I would be somehow ok with it to make things easier.

Still, Im think the damage is way too poor compared to the flamers and should get +1 or even +2.

Maybe +1 is enough, but also give -1 to the flamer and hand flamer (they are a little strong at the moment in my oppinion).

After considering this, I think the shotgun really would need something unique to not make it just another flamer-copy.

This is why I suggested to give it concussive at point blank.

This deals

a.) with the use of shotguns in restricted spaces

b.) protection against melee

c.) can also be used for door-blasting

So:

> Flamer & hand flamer each -1 damage

> Shotgun +1 damage (1d10+3)

> Shotgun gets Concussive (0) at point blank range, which also can be used to blast doors

Just a quick idea. How about if shotguns had the Storm quality instead of Spray for Scatter.

On second thoughts the additional ammo useage of Storm would not fit. Well it was just a quick idea.

I always hated that whole idea of a shotgun being a weapon that sprays shot in such a wide spread that it's a weapon where one shot clears a room. In reality a shotgun could put all of it's pellets in a spread the size of a dinner plate from quite a distance away. I really liked how shotguns worked in the old system and I actually found them to be REALLY useful because they hit so hard.

I always hated that whole idea of a shotgun being a weapon that sprays shot in such a wide spread that it's a weapon where one shot clears a room. In reality a shotgun could put all of it's pellets in a spread the size of a dinner plate from quite a distance away. I really liked how shotguns worked in the old system and I actually found them to be REALLY useful because they hit so hard.

I wholeheartedly agree! Spray for shotguns really has to be taken away. I suggested giving the shotgun blas (1) instead but to be honest that was a compromise, I´d rather see a shotgun hitting only one target. I recently looked up that a SPAS-12 spread about 0,9m at 40m range, now Im not saying 40k shotguns must work the same way as shotguns of today but at least have some similarity.

My guess is that scatter was taken away because ranges were simplyfied. Since there is no point blank range anymore we got spray instead, a poor deal if you ask me.

Here´s a suggestion for a new version of scatter: Ad 1d10 damage when fired within 5m. (the reason why Im not suggesting the old rule is because point blank also gave +30 to hit so this suggestion felt simpler)

I would also like to ad a bonus damage vs cover as I mentioned above, not sure if its realistic but it feels right to thrash the crate my enemy is hiding behind with a shotgun.

Just another thing to think about:

Spray can also lead to strange effects when used with other weapons.

Example: Bladestorm ability of Dire avengers with the shuriken catapult

--> you can effectively hit more targets, but your attack does not use more ammunition ?

Why ? Is this a...magical Bladestorm ?

Should it be changed to use more ammunition ? If so, how much more?

Problem ist, this also depends on the weapons RoF and the invested APs...

I personally think that the shotgun rules should follow how they worked in Only War after the errata. Pre-errata, it worked off of extra hits thus making enemies with high armor and/or toughness immune to the obscene stopping power of a shotgun, and even those with moderate armor and/or toughness it did very little damage. I'm fairly certain we can all agree if we shove a barrel of a shotgun up to an armored guy's gut and pulled the trigger, he really wouldn't be alive anymore.

EDIT: Other reason why I say keep shotgun how it was in Only War is because we REALLY shouldn't need to "fix" things that ain't broke.

Correct - leave shotgun as it was with its scatter definition in OW and remove spray. Also improve its damage a little and it is fine.

Also, accurate should be improved again - also a worsened weapom trait that was ok before. Maybe, due to the improved sniper weapon stats, it should only give +1 damage per DoS instead of 1d10 per 2 DoS.