Armor on Creatures: Does it just replace the old stat or does it stack?

For example:

Skeleton

Defense: 1 / Soak: 1

If I put that skeleton in Chainmail does he then become:

Defense: 0 / Soak: 3

?

Anybody got a page reference for me on how this works?

Thanks,

Jh

^ Our latest game sessions recapped: http://enemywithincampaign.wikispaces.com/Sessions

Creature guide, Pg 89:

Under Damage, Soak, and Defense

...If the GM wishes to customise the encounter and provide specific equipment or other gear, replace the numbers in parentheses with the replacement equipment's actual values - such as damage rating, critical rating, and any special traits or abilities that may apply.

Under Weapons, Armour, and Values

...Sometimes non-player characters have additional defense or soak values from other sources, such as shields or special abilities. These values are cumulative.

I read that as Armor replaces the defense values of the critter - but if you gave a skeleton a shield, you could increase their defense and soak by whatever values the shield had.

The "special abilities" bit being cumulative I'd interpret as something like a unique item adding extra soak/defense or something like a spirit's ability to add Willpower to their initial soak value.

Under Weapons, Armour, and Values

...Sometimes non-player characters have additional defense or soak values from other sources, such as shields or special abilities. These values are cumulative.

I read that as Armor replaces the defense values of the critter - but if you gave a skeleton a shield, you could increase their defense and soak by whatever values the shield had.

Buh?

The word cumulative is used in the official book you have quoted, that means on top of anything already existing, I do not see why it would be any different for NPCs from PCs, their values are also cumulative.

I do not think Critters are 'created' wearing armour so I would add anything I armed them with on top of what is there already.

Thanks for finding the quotes. I just find it odd that a skeleton would LOSE his defense if you put him in armor.

But, like a player character, you /cannot/ gain a chainmail bonus on top of a robe bonus for instance.

Like ogres, perhaps some have natural armor.

Additional thoughts?

The first part I quoted is referring directly to the damage, soak, & defense values of creatures and says that equipment will replace those values.

The full paragraph context is

Damage Rating

Defense Rating

Soak Value

These numbers represent the default values assuming that the NPC listed is outfitted with typical gear or trappings for a creature of its kind. If the GM wishes to customize the encounter and provide specific equipment or other gear, replace the numbers in parentheses with the replacement equipment's actual values - such as damage rating, critical rating, and any special traits or abilities that may apply.

That's where I get that inference.

The second section I quoted specifically calls out shields and special abilities and says those are cumulative.

PCs can only benefit from one suit of armor, but armor + shield (or other special abilities) are cumulative - so the only difference is that NPC and critters have "built in" defense and attack values for simplicity.

The GM can use these values and describe a skeleton warrior with or without gear at their option.

If the GM wants to dial up the danger (and deal with the added detail) they can have the skeleton wield a great weapon and replace the Skeleton's Damage stat with 7 and give it a CR of 2.

Likewise, they can outfit the skeleton with chainmail, and replace the skeleton's default soak (1) and defense (1) with chainmail's soak (3) and defense of (0).

If all additional equipment was cumulative that would mean critters would add their damage values to any weapons they carried - making NPCs more lethal than PCs could hope to be.

Picture a Worgor with a great weapon using its default DR added to the DR of a great weapon and their ST ( 5 + 7 + 6 = 18!).

vs. a Worgor under the rules as written using a great weapon: DR of great weapon + their ST ( 7 + 6 = 13)

Some folks might want to swim in those waters, but those would be house rules.

I just find it odd that a skeleton would LOSE his defense if you put him in armor.

But, like a player character, you /cannot/ gain a chainmail bonus on top of a robe bonus for instance.

Like ogres, perhaps some have natural armor.

Additional thoughts?

It does seem odd. And I had the same question about it, but when you view the stats as "With typical gear" it seems less crazy.

Picture "typical gear" as a skeleton using a battered mail shirt that has one less soak than normal - Defense 1, Soak 1.

Now when you give him spiffy new chainmail instead, he goes to Defense 0, Soak 3.

Late Edit:

This approach makes the GM's life easier when tracking lots of NPCs/Monsters, but

-the downside comes when the PCs decide to loot the NPCs of whatever gear they just saw used against them to great effect.

I used a stock critter with Soak 2 and Defense 2 and when the PCs slew them they wanted to take that armor and get the same benefits.

There is no Soak 2 / Defense 2 armor in the rules, so now you either invent a new kind of armor, or you say some of those values were the critter's leathery skin or whatever.

PCs don't like to hear that, but it's a natural result of stats representing a creature in "typical gear."

I often give NPCs different soak and defense that matches no armor. No need to invent new armor... those extra points are just the NPC equivalent of player talents and special actions.

I just find it odd that a skeleton would LOSE his defense if you put him in armor.

Explanation: When you try poke your sword through the skeleton, it now finds resistance more often, not an empty space between loose ribs.

I often give NPCs different soak and defense that matches no armor. No need to invent new armor... those extra points are just the NPC equivalent of player talents and special actions.

When NPCs talents/equipment are combined into defense + soak isn't the issue I was mentioning.

It's when your players slay that NPC and take their armor. The PCs know that the NPC was getting Defense 2 and Soak 2, but when they don the NPC's armor they find they only get Defense 1 and Soak 1 and want answers.

And when you explain why this is, they have the same initial reaction that Emirikol did (heck, that anyone would): Huh?

But that's the rules.

Yes, replacing armor or weapon replaces the rating. This represents replacing the "typical equipment", which in some instances *could* be natural armor.

Then again, WFRP is designed to be flexible. If you feel an NPC should reasonably have additional bonuses, go ahead and make it cumulative. If you think that skeletons have a natural soak of 1 due to their innate resilience (being nothing but bones with no flesh to damage), and then you give them armor, feel free to add the soaks together.

As for PCs looting the bodies...

1) NPC gear will rarely fit a PC adventurer. Most armors must be custom fitted in order to work properly, even leather and chain. Don't let them use it.

2) The PLAYERS know, through meta-gaming, that the NPC has 2 soak and 2 defense ... there is nothing that tells the Players those values are only from the armor the NPC is wearing. See the example above regarding the skeleton. Perhaps the soak difference is due to some innate ability of the wearing NPC. Honestly, though, if the PCs killed the NPC, most likely the armor is no longer in any condition to be wearable anyway.