I take issue with the base characteristics for the ranged heavy and melee combat skills. Ranged heavy, current agility based, should be based on brawn as it take more effort that agility to hold a heavy two handed weapon correctly, then ranks would improve aiming ability etc. Whereas a light single handed weapon can easily be picked up but requires more coordination to steady it and fire, again ranks adding efficiency.

Similarly melee, currently brawn, should be agility based, melee attacks such as kung fu are more agile and differ from brawl attacks like boxing which are more brawn. Similarly weapons should be more carefully classified, a combat knife as a melee weapon could be used like Jason Bourne's biro and based on agility. The truncheon however should be mainly reclassified as a brawn weapon as its main usage would be to bash and based on brawn.

I take issue with the base characteristics for the ranged heavy and melee combat skills. Ranged heavy, current agility based, should be based on brawn as it take more effort that agility to hold a heavy two handed weapon correctly, then ranks would improve aiming ability etc. Whereas a light single handed weapon can easily be picked up but requires more coordination to steady it and fire, again ranks adding efficiency.

This is what the Cumbersome is for. Yes it takes a bit of Brawn to heft up a heavy blaster rifle. But once I'm strong enough to do it, being stronger doesn't make me more accurate, having better coordination does.

I have one doubt for everyone that told me one of my players. "Do you believe that is fair that someone with normal Brawn of 2 that has trained an entire life with swords adquiring 5 to Melee, has the same posibilities and ratio or above to hit someone than someone with NO idea about combat, 0 skill, but with only incredible Brawn 5?"

Well your skill 5 brawn 2 swordsman gets 2 yellow dice and 3 green, your Skill 0 Brawn 5 gets 5 green. The yellow dice have significantly more successes, advantages, and the Triumph which the green dice do not. So sure the Brawn guy can power through their opponents defenses, get hits and maybe even a crit now and then, but the skilled guy is going to consistently do better, get more advantages and have the very real possibility of getting special results.

It may not seem like it's right but i think you'll see it works itself out over time when you play.

Similarly melee, currently brawn, should be agility based, melee attacks such as kung fu are more agile and differ from brawl attacks like boxing which are more brawn. Similarly weapons should be more carefully classified, a combat knife as a melee weapon could be used like Jason Bourne's biro and based on agility. The truncheon however should be mainly reclassified as a brawn weapon as its main usage would be to bash and based on brawn.

The designers said they wanted to avoid the super stat problem other games have and so all melee and brawl is under one stat and all ranged another. They've mitigated this by using Skills modified by Attribute for combat based to hit system. Since one roll = both the chance to hit and the total damage when you hit Brawn becomes the base because it's the base for how hard you hit, your skill determines how of well you hit with the better strike doing more damage.

So your KungFu guy's Agility isn't the defining factor of how well he hits, his skill is. This makes perfect sense especially in a narrative system such as EotE. All the agility in the world isn't going to help you hit harder, sure you may hit a more vulnerable place but only if you are skilled enough, even then your not going to hit harder.

This all strikes me as strawman arguments from people who haven't sat down and played the game. Punching someone or shooting them with a gun are both really easy in real life, and stronger you are or the better your aim the easier these tasks are. However with proper training you can do some pretty impressive things with whatever kind of weapon you so choose; hence why Proficiency dice have more Success and Advantage symbols, and hence why they're the ONLY die that can produce Triumph results.

I actually love the shooting mechanics. Because quite frankly you really don't have a lot of control over if you are hit in a firefight.

Guns are always > human reflexes. Yet with cover, and defenses you can get some bonuses. Also since it is kind of hard to "die" in this game and armor is very good I am not too worried about it. It also makes it so my players think things through and don't always go in guns blazing.

Then again I created an house rule of opposed rolls for melee because that is more skill for each person fighting. But if someone is a really good shot no matter how fast or agile you are, you have so little control if that projectile hits you or not.

I take issue with the base characteristics for the ranged heavy and melee combat skills. Ranged heavy, current agility based, should be based on brawn as it take more effort that agility to hold a heavy two handed weapon correctly, then ranks would improve aiming ability etc. Whereas a light single handed weapon can easily be picked up but requires more coordination to steady it and fire, again ranks adding efficiency.

This is what the Cumbersome is for. Yes it takes a bit of Brawn to heft up a heavy blaster rifle. But once I'm strong enough to do it, being stronger doesn't make me more accurate, having better coordination does.

This is exactly right. If you are strong enough to properly handle a rifle, you don't get any further bonus for being stronger. And aiming a firearm is all about coordination (agility), not brute force (brawn).

Hi again!

Probably it wasn't your intention, but it was a bit ofensive conclusion JonahHex.

I made about 600 dice rolls with the program (no exagerations), and from what I saw a Brawn 5 Skill 0 (5 Green), Brawn 2 Skill 5 (2 Yellow 3 Green) of course have diferences, but from my point of view it isn't enough diference considering that the first one is a reallly strong person that never faced a combat or trained from someone with an average strenght that practiced for 40 years as an expert combatant and also made real combat.

Probably like you, I don't believe or I dislike in the classical d20 system that says that a level 20 is almost invincible, and that the difference between 20 and level 1 is awesome and you'll never beat it unless the GM is your boyfriend/girlfriend (XD), but the so low difference between those two people I described its also incorrect from my point of view.

I also consider that the "veteran" also probably have more XP so more powerful talent that gives him/her some extra advantage but in "dice mechanics and stats mechanics" seems a bit unfair. Of course I understand that this is a more cinematic than a pure simulator game (I prefer cinematic than simulation) but this doesn't mean that I don't want to accept more suggestions or new idea from the game.

So, I love always new ideas and new points of view. I liked your description about a all-weapon skilled description, its the typical "Jackie Chan" feat XD

So, from this (probably) more well defined personal point of view, any more sugestions or ideas?

Thanks!

I think the disconnect you are having is that the assumption in Star Wars is that everyone is pretty capable. Not having a skill rank doesn't mean you have never done something in your life.

Just like a person with no skill ranks in computers can still try and use the computer skill. If you think that not having a skill rank means you have no knowledge at all of computers, it makes zero sense, but when you start thinking of skill ranks as EXCEPTIONAL skill, it clicks.

Keep in mind that a lone stormtrooper has 0 skill ranks in Ranged (Heavy). Think about the level of training a stormtrooper receives with a blaster rifle. Do you think he has no knowledge of how to use it?

Alternately, just Google "bullets per kill".

But both WOTC's Saga designers and FFG's SWRPG designers clearly thought about in dealing with the concept of "untrained skills vs. trained skills", and Emperor Norton's got a way to think about the FFG SWRPG that comports with FuriousGreg and JonahHex's posts.

Keep in mind that someone with Brawn 5 is not just really strong - he's adept at applying that strength in various ways. This natural aptitude for close combat allows him to excel with only minimal training. Characters with high Agility likewise find all forms of ranged combat to be easier than others might find them and can hit targets without extensive training.

Really, really interesting...

I almost forgot the "heroic" condition. Every stat has more potential, stormtroopers are, potentially, the best shooters among the galaxy only with Agi 3 (forgot the old movies please XD). So someone with "only" 2 or 3 in one characteristic is someone "naturally skilled" with that kind of efforts, because this is an heroic oriented systems.

Saga also told us that someone at level 20 potetially got +10 to all his/her skills because its a hero and hero are cool.

Yep, now I'm sawing this from that point of view, thank you so much to every aportation

The only important thing that I probably change is that I will "open" classes and let everyone access to non-carrier talents just paying some XP. I will consider it.

Again thank you so much to everyone and someone else has made any base mechanics change to their games that would like to share or debate?

The only important thing that I probably change is that I will "open" classes and let everyone access to non-carrier talents just paying some XP. I will consider it.

Everyone already has access to non-career talents in exchange for XP. You just spend XP to buy access to the talent tree.

Hi again!

Probably it wasn't your intention, but it was a bit ofensive conclusion JonahHex.

I made about 600 dice rolls with the program (no exagerations), and from what I saw a Brawn 5 Skill 0 (5 Green), Brawn 2 Skill 5 (2 Yellow 3 Green) of course have diferences, but from my point of view it isn't enough diference considering that the first one is a reallly strong person that never faced a combat or trained from someone with an average strenght that practiced for 40 years as an expert combatant and also made real combat.

Probably like you, I don't believe or I dislike in the classical d20 system that says that a level 20 is almost invincible, and that the difference between 20 and level 1 is awesome and you'll never beat it unless the GM is your boyfriend/girlfriend (XD), but the so low difference between those two people I described its also incorrect from my point of view.

I also consider that the "veteran" also probably have more XP so more powerful talent that gives him/her some extra advantage but in "dice mechanics and stats mechanics" seems a bit unfair. Of course I understand that this is a more cinematic than a pure simulator game (I prefer cinematic than simulation) but this doesn't mean that I don't want to accept more suggestions or new idea from the game.

So, I love always new ideas and new points of view. I liked your description about a all-weapon skilled description, its the typical "Jackie Chan" feat XD

So, from this (probably) more well defined personal point of view, any more sugestions or ideas?

Thanks!

First of all, playing the game is extraordinarily different from using the dice roller. Due to the narrative nature of the game being in the hands of both GMs AND players (thanks to Advantage, Triumph, Threat, and Despair symbols) 600 test rolls on a dice program is a poor comparison to actual gameplay. Simply put, you never know what happens when multiple creative minds get behind every single die roll. Give it a try! It's a lot of fun, and it's about a lot more than just numbers and probabilities.

Second of all, you are completely discounting talents. Someone with rank 5 in a combat skill either has plenty of talents to back that skill up, or they're not a member of a combat-focused career. A mechanic with rank 5 in Brawl might have been a prize fighter on and off over the years -- certainly not someone you would want to mess with lightly -- but no matter how you slice it souping up hyperdrives and fixing bad motivators is still his primary area of expertise. However do you really expect a TYPICAL mechanic to purchase all 5 ranks of Brawl? Probably not. Most likely someone with 5 ranks in Brawl is a marauder or maybe even a bounty hunter, someone who's primary area of expertise (not to mention their means of employment) is, for all intents and purposes, beating people up. Such a character will have talents that increase his Brawl damage and even upgrade the check.

In fact, allow me to look it up after I'm done with a brief errand. I'll show you what a Brawn 2, Brawl 5 marauder can actually do to someone. Standby.

Hi again!

Probably it wasn't your intention, but it was a bit ofensive conclusion JonahHex.

I made about 600 dice rolls with the program (no exagerations), and from what I saw a Brawn 5 Skill 0 (5 Green), Brawn 2 Skill 5 (2 Yellow 3 Green) of course have diferences, but from my point of view it isn't enough diference considering that the first one is a reallly strong person that never faced a combat or trained from someone with an average strenght that practiced for 40 years as an expert combatant and also made real combat.

Probably like you, I don't believe or I dislike in the classical d20 system that says that a level 20 is almost invincible, and that the difference between 20 and level 1 is awesome and you'll never beat it unless the GM is your boyfriend/girlfriend (XD), but the so low difference between those two people I described its also incorrect from my point of view.

I also consider that the "veteran" also probably have more XP so more powerful talent that gives him/her some extra advantage but in "dice mechanics and stats mechanics" seems a bit unfair. Of course I understand that this is a more cinematic than a pure simulator game (I prefer cinematic than simulation) but this doesn't mean that I don't want to accept more suggestions or new idea from the game.

So, I love always new ideas and new points of view. I liked your description about a all-weapon skilled description, its the typical "Jackie Chan" feat XD

So, from this (probably) more well defined personal point of view, any more sugestions or ideas?

Thanks!

As you have stated in previous posts a 5 Brawn should not result in more precision. However, that is not what it represents in the game. Have you ever watched a movie in which the hero, such as a Jet Li or Jason Statham, is running around beating up entire troops of enemies with their superior martial arts skills? Then out steps some huge scary looking dude with muscles on his muscles. The hero kicks him in the stomach and just bounces off then punches the guy in the face and he just glares back at them and proceeds throw them into walls and smash tables with their faces and just all around mop the floor with them with just shear brute force.

Brawn isn't about having more precision, it is representing that even a graze from this person which would usually be insignificant is actually devastating. If that professional duelist with a vibrosword and Brawn 1 just barely clips your arm you probably won't even feel it. If that guy with Brawn 5 and just his fists just grazes your arm it is going to break bone and nearly tear it from the socket. So even though the guy with 5 Brawn is not nearly as accurate even his glancing blows are more effective so he doesn't need to be.

...Brawn isn't about having more precision, it is representing that even a graze from this person which would usually be insignificant is actually devastating. If that professional duelist with a vibrosword and Brawn 1 just barely clips your arm you probably won't even feel it. If that guy with Brawn 5 and just his fists just grazes your arm it is going to break bone and nearly tear it from the socket. So even though the guy with 5 Brawn is not nearly as accurate even his glancing blows are more effective so he doesn't need to be.

+1

It's the difference between a system that tries to simulate combat and one that narrates combat, once you get your head around it you'll see you don't need to micromanage it.

THE BRAWN 2 BRAWL 5 MARAUDER: First of all, his weapon. Brass knuckles are nice, but they have no Hard Points (not an unsolvable problem, but there's no need for this character to dip into Gadgeteer or Outlaw Tech). Shock gloves might not add any extra damage, but they have 1 Hard Point which is perfect for the Weighted Head attachment (page 193). Let's go ahead and give him that and say he's installed both Weighted Head mods, which will give his shock gloves damage +1 and weapon quality (concussive) even when they're not turned on. (Granted this assumes someone in the party is adept at modding gear, but the checks for two mods certainly aren't TOO difficult and the total price still comes out to less than that of a heavy blaster pistol.)

Now let's assume that in the process of getting to Brawl 5, our Brawn 2 friend here also completed (or nearly completed) the Marauder specialization tree. This would give him Feral Strength 3, Frenzied Attack 3, Lethal Blows 2, and Natural Brawler in addition to his 5 ranks in Brawl. Combined with his modded shock gloves, this would mean his attack would look something like this (provided he uses Feral Strength to its fullest extent by paying 3 strain);

YYYYY with a +4 bonus to damage, a +20 bonus to critical injury rolls, the ability to spend 2 Advantage symbols to either disorient his target for 3 rounds OR stagger (as in cannot take actions) his opponent for 1 round, and the ability to reroll a Brawl check once per session if need be.

How's that Brawl 0, Brawn 5 guy looking now? Not so tough, I'd imagine.

...Brawn isn't about having more precision, it is representing that even a graze from this person which would usually be insignificant is actually devastating. If that professional duelist with a vibrosword and Brawn 1 just barely clips your arm you probably won't even feel it. If that guy with Brawn 5 and just his fists just grazes your arm it is going to break bone and nearly tear it from the socket. So even though the guy with 5 Brawn is not nearly as accurate even his glancing blows are more effective so he doesn't need to be.

+1

It's the difference between a system that tries to simulate combat and one that narrates combat, once you get your head around it you'll see you don't need to micromanage it.

^^^ EXACTLY!!! However it also makes just enough sense when you micromanage it a bit in your head. lol

The only important thing that I probably change is that I will "open" classes and let everyone access to non-carrier talents just paying some XP. I will consider it.

Everyone already has access to non-career talents in exchange for XP. You just spend XP to buy access to the talent tree.

New at multi-post, not sure if I'm doing it well XDD

With XP "problem" or alternative I mean: Imagine that someone is a "soldier". So characters has "soldier" carrier but also he wants take some concrete talent or skill that "isn't from his/her class" like "cooking" that comes from chef carrier. I mean that of course ti will have a lot of awesome oportunities to build up his "soldier" skills thanks to his backgroud but, why if character spend the same time cooking (NOT using the other "chef skills") than fighting have to buy an entire tree or have to spend more XP. Why he have to take three more skills that he doesn't use because he have to choice an special talent or pay extra XP for a skill that practices the same amount of time thanks to his backgrounf (4 hours a day soldier skills 4 hours a day chef).

Cause that reason is why I don't like so much "classes" on RPG games, I was looking for an alternative. Also I saw that Edge have a really flexible "extra class" XP mode, so, it will fit for me.

Hi again!

Probably it wasn't your intention, but it was a bit ofensive conclusion JonahHex.

I made about 600 dice rolls with the program (no exagerations), and from what I saw a Brawn 5 Skill 0 (5 Green), Brawn 2 Skill 5 (2 Yellow 3 Green) of course have diferences, but from my point of view it isn't enough diference considering that the first one is a reallly strong person that never faced a combat or trained from someone with an average strenght that practiced for 40 years as an expert combatant and also made real combat.

Probably like you, I don't believe or I dislike in the classical d20 system that says that a level 20 is almost invincible, and that the difference between 20 and level 1 is awesome and you'll never beat it unless the GM is your boyfriend/girlfriend (XD), but the so low difference between those two people I described its also incorrect from my point of view.

I also consider that the "veteran" also probably have more XP so more powerful talent that gives him/her some extra advantage but in "dice mechanics and stats mechanics" seems a bit unfair. Of course I understand that this is a more cinematic than a pure simulator game (I prefer cinematic than simulation) but this doesn't mean that I don't want to accept more suggestions or new idea from the game.

So, I love always new ideas and new points of view. I liked your description about a all-weapon skilled description, its the typical "Jackie Chan" feat XD

So, from this (probably) more well defined personal point of view, any more sugestions or ideas?

Thanks!

First of all, playing the game is extraordinarily different from using the dice roller. Due to the narrative nature of the game being in the hands of both GMs AND players (thanks to Advantage, Triumph, Threat, and Despair symbols) 600 test rolls on a dice program is a poor comparison to actual gameplay. Simply put, you never know what happens when multiple creative minds get behind every single die roll. Give it a try! It's a lot of fun, and it's about a lot more than just numbers and probabilities.

Second of all, you are completely discounting talents. Someone with rank 5 in a combat skill either has plenty of talents to back that skill up, or they're not a member of a combat-focused career. A mechanic with rank 5 in Brawl might have been a prize fighter on and off over the years -- certainly not someone you would want to mess with lightly -- but no matter how you slice it souping up hyperdrives and fixing bad motivators is still his primary area of expertise. However do you really expect a TYPICAL mechanic to purchase all 5 ranks of Brawl? Probably not. Most likely someone with 5 ranks in Brawl is a marauder or maybe even a bounty hunter, someone who's primary area of expertise (not to mention their means of employment) is, for all intents and purposes, beating people up. Such a character will have talents that increase his Brawl damage and even upgrade the check.

In fact, allow me to look it up after I'm done with a brief errand. I'll show you what a Brawn 2, Brawl 5 marauder can actually do to someone. Standby.

Yep, you are absolutelly true but I was refering only the "mechanics and stadistic" part that can be mesured with just "numbers". In my main session I never (or almost) roll dices XD We use an almost 100% narrative game.

Hi again!

Probably it wasn't your intention, but it was a bit ofensive conclusion JonahHex.

I made about 600 dice rolls with the program (no exagerations), and from what I saw a Brawn 5 Skill 0 (5 Green), Brawn 2 Skill 5 (2 Yellow 3 Green) of course have diferences, but from my point of view it isn't enough diference considering that the first one is a reallly strong person that never faced a combat or trained from someone with an average strenght that practiced for 40 years as an expert combatant and also made real combat.

Probably like you, I don't believe or I dislike in the classical d20 system that says that a level 20 is almost invincible, and that the difference between 20 and level 1 is awesome and you'll never beat it unless the GM is your boyfriend/girlfriend (XD), but the so low difference between those two people I described its also incorrect from my point of view.

I also consider that the "veteran" also probably have more XP so more powerful talent that gives him/her some extra advantage but in "dice mechanics and stats mechanics" seems a bit unfair. Of course I understand that this is a more cinematic than a pure simulator game (I prefer cinematic than simulation) but this doesn't mean that I don't want to accept more suggestions or new idea from the game.

So, I love always new ideas and new points of view. I liked your description about a all-weapon skilled description, its the typical "Jackie Chan" feat XD

So, from this (probably) more well defined personal point of view, any more sugestions or ideas?

Thanks!

As you have stated in previous posts a 5 Brawn should not result in more precision. However, that is not what it represents in the game. Have you ever watched a movie in which the hero, such as a Jet Li or Jason Statham, is running around beating up entire troops of enemies with their superior martial arts skills? Then out steps some huge scary looking dude with muscles on his muscles. The hero kicks him in the stomach and just bounces off then punches the guy in the face and he just glares back at them and proceeds throw them into walls and smash tables with their faces and just all around mop the floor with them with just shear brute force.

Brawn isn't about having more precision, it is representing that even a graze from this person which would usually be insignificant is actually devastating. If that professional duelist with a vibrosword and Brawn 1 just barely clips your arm you probably won't even feel it. If that guy with Brawn 5 and just his fists just grazes your arm it is going to break bone and nearly tear it from the socket. So even though the guy with 5 Brawn is not nearly as accurate even his glancing blows are more effective so he doesn't need to be.

Yep, the typical though thug that uses to create tons of problems to heroes "probably" have a higer Brawn, but I'm sawing that here there are a few differents interpretations and points of view about that, I love it

...Brawn isn't about having more precision, it is representing that even a graze from this person which would usually be insignificant is actually devastating. If that professional duelist with a vibrosword and Brawn 1 just barely clips your arm you probably won't even feel it. If that guy with Brawn 5 and just his fists just grazes your arm it is going to break bone and nearly tear it from the socket. So even though the guy with 5 Brawn is not nearly as accurate even his glancing blows are more effective so he doesn't need to be.

+1

It's the difference between a system that tries to simulate combat and one that narrates combat, once you get your head around it you'll see you don't need to micromanage it.

Yep, as I said I love cinematic games, but also I love to analyze and understand game mechanics, this helps me sometimes to understand creators point of view. The last word comes from the GM

Thanks to everyone people!

Hey, you guys want to trim your quotes? Having to scroll a wall of text that has nested quotes that have already been quoted and requoted several times already seems kind of pointless.

There is any way to "Hide/Show" people's quotes whafrog? As I said top, its one of my first experiences with quotes so, tips are welcome

I'm not "forum proficent" XD

It's easy: all you have to do is go into the quoted part and remove whatever isn't necessary to make your point. It's editable just like the rest of your post.

Ok, no "hide" button then. Thanks whafrog!

JonahHex, after a few tests with the game, I have to give you the absolute truth.

I tested a few things with some dices and variants and... those dice combinations are MAGIC!

People from FFG have designed something INCREDIBLE. A guy with 2 Yellow and 1 Green uses to roll better results than someone with just 5 Greens!

I made a few sessions and... I can't explains it, just MAGIC! XD

Thanks