Okay, so one of the new talents in AoR is Invigorate (page 99) which is worded as follows:

"When the character performs a Cool or Discipline check to recover strain at the end of an encounter, he may include Force Dice equal to his Force Rating. Each Light Side adds a success to the check, but each Dark Side adds a threat to the check."

In comparison, we have Balance, which is listed on page 94 and has the same rules text as the EotE corebook, which states that the PC just rolls Force Dice = their Force Rating, with no mention of Cool or Discipline, making it read as an "either/or" situation; either you roll Cool/Discipline, or you roll your Force Rating.

But I know a few GMs (self included up to this point), that allowed Balance to be used in conjunction with the Cool/Discipline roll, especially given how important Discipline is to Force-users.

So it would seem that with the introduction of Invigorate, we've been running it wrong. Balance is a bit more of a "sure thing" as there's no negative repercussions, where Invigorate offers a bigger boon but with a risk involved.

Also, wondering if the "adds a threat to the check" shouldn't be "adds a failure" instead. Not a whole lot of use for threat symbols once the encounter is done, though I suppose having it be failure means that you could wind up with no Strain recovered if you happen to roll nothing but Dark Side pips.

I think it should be failures instead of threats on that. May have to submit a question on that one. Though you could still spend threats to cause them strain damage.....

That definitely works. So they could recover strain and then take some more.

Are there any talents that allow you to roll during a conflict to reduce strain? If so, that may be where Invigorate comes in. I haven't found any yet, but I am but one man

-EF

Are there any talents that allow you to roll during a conflict to reduce strain? If so, that may be where Invigorate comes in. I haven't found any yet, but I am but one man

-EF

Nope. Both talents refer to "after combat," and the closest to an in-combat recovery is Second Wind, which is based solely upon your ranks in the talent.

Also, Balance is listed as a maneuver to use, while Invigorate is an incidental activation.

Balance should be used together with cool/discipline after an encounter. It states "regains additional strain equal to the (light side pips) rolled".

And in the talent tree description it states "add "force die""

Balance should be used together with cool/discipline after an encounter. It states "regains additional strain equal to the (light side pips) rolled".

And in the talent tree description it states "add "force die""

See, now that really has me questioning Invigorate, since it's pretty much a sub-par version of Balance.

Also, as a general rule, I tend to go with the full description of a talent as given in the Talents chapter, as the versions on the talent trees are often abbreviated and/or summarized and thus may not include the full rules text. Seen a few talent arguments get solved very quickly with "if you refer to the full write-up of the talent on page XX."

Sometimes a bit of the information is given on the tree that is not in the complete description, as long as they don't contradict I think they are meant to add to each other. But in case of contradiction or a more clear description of how to use it in the longer text version then that over-rules talent tree description.

But yes it seems as Invigorate is a sub-par version of it by the things i have read in this thread (don't have the beta).

If you (or someone else) could write up the text of both the Talent tree and Talent-text version of Invigorate it might give us (me) some clarity of it's meant to work. Because now it sure sounds sub-par.

Or if the Emergent talent tree gets Balance also, before Invigorate I say you may as a choice roll your force rating two times, but half of those dice can give you treats, as a sort of gamble.

Balance Talent Tree (20XP):

When the character recovers strain at the end of the encounter, he may add [Force Die] per Force Rating. He recovers additional strain equal to [white pip] generated.

Balance Talent Chapter:

When the character recovers from strain at the end of each encounter, he may roll his Force rating in Force dice. He recovers additional strain equal to the [white pip] rolled.

Invigorate Talent Tree (25XP):

May add [Force Die] per Force Rating to Cool or Discipline checks made to recover strain. [White pip] add [success] and [black pip] add [threat].

Invigorate Talent Chapter:

When the character perfoms a Cool or Discipline check to reover strain at the end of an encounter, he may include [Force die] equal to his Force rating. Each [white pip] adds [success] to the check, but each [black pip] adds [threat] to the check.

I honestly don't know why you would use Invigorate, nor what the threats are meant to do.

-EF

A few questions:

If I'm understanding it correctly, the FSEm has access to both Balance AND Invigorate? Balance costs 20 XP and Invigorate costs 25 XP. Yes?

Where are they relative to one another? Is Balance a direct antecedent to Invigorate? If not, what are their relative total costs to access? Although Balance is a "tier 3" ability with a cost of 15 for the FSEx, because of it's relative place on the talent tree, the minimum purchase price is 85 (vs 75 for a "straight line" tier 5 talent), making it pretty expensive.

The relative placement of the two abilities leads me to two different thoughts:

1) Perhaps Invigorate is just supposed to be a worse talent? All abilities are not necessarily created equal (or necessarily better as they move down the page). If they're on different parts of the tree, chances are they're intended to work well with the talents around them, so there may be bit of an answer there.

2) Is it possible that the talents are cumulative? There is nothing in the descriptions of the talents themselves that would prohibit someone from using both together, but there may be something in the larger rules. If they can be used together, how would they interact? Would black results from the Balance dice also be at risk? If so, that's a somewhat interesting decision to make.

Alternately, it's very possible that this is a beta artifact that will change in the final version.

Gwek,

Yes, the F/S Emergent has both of these talents. Balance is in the 4th Row in the 4th Column, while Invigorate is in the 5th Row off in the 1st Column, and is only connected to the 4th Row talent directly above it.

I don't know if Invigorate was meant to be the worst talent, but seeing as how it's been placed in the 5th Row along such precious talents as Force Rating and Dedication, that seems off. If Invigorate were in a lower row or was easier to get to, then I could be the intent being for the talent to be sub-par.

As for working together, maybe, but I would think that you'd have to split your Force Dice up between the, as allowing a single Force Die to count for both talents at the same time means you'd get back twice as much Strain for a single Light Side point, something that would start to become an issue as higher FR values become available (right now, the cap is at 3, but that's going to change the moment F&D is released).

If it is a Beta artifact, I hope it's something that gets addressed and corrected/clarified in the initial update. Although, if Invigorate was meant to recover Wounds instead of Strain, that makes a huge difference and makes Invigorate a very effective talent since it's a "self-heal."

Yeah, as-written, Invigorate does just sound like a straight-up "not as good" version of Balance. And not even just mildly inferior; noticeably worse, given the frequency of Dark Side points on those dice.

Now, if it were a risk/reward choice between taking more Strain in order to recover Wounds, then it would be worth it, and I don't think it'd be unbalanced.

One possible idea, one that I'd thought of and dismissed early on due to wording of the talents, is that maybe the intent for Invigorate was that it stacks with Balance? In effect, if you have both talents, then each LS pip you roll allows you to recover two Strain instead of just one?

If that is the case, then Invigorate could certainly be worded better, even if it's only to add a sentence at the end of the talent's game text in the Talents chapter to say "If the character also has the Balance talent, the effects of these two talents stack when determining the amount of Strain recovered."

Right now, there's no precedent for "double-dipping" in regards to expenditure of a character's various resources, be they Force Points, Strain, or Destiny Points; you spend one of those to get a single specific effect.

Another interesting tidbit is that Balance has an Activation of "Action (Maneuver)" while Invigorate is "Action (Incidental)", but as both reference the after-combat roll to recover Strain (which you normally only get to do once), I don't see the intent as being that you'd get to roll your Force dice twice if you happen to have both talents, as the Force dice are included in the Cool/Discipline check, which as mentioned you only get to roll once.

I think Invigorate is acutally used to let another character recover Strain.

On page 157 of the AoR Beta in the third paragraph under "Recovering From Strain" it says, "It is also rumored that some Jedi have mastered a technique that allows them to ignore the effects of strain, or ease the minds of others to help them recover more quickly."

That statement would cover Balance and Invigorate if the latter was for others. It would explain why there is less chance of success as well.

Since the rolls would happen at the same time, the Force user would have to choose between using each talent, or splitting the Force dice pool.

I think Invigorate is acutally used to let another character recover Strain.

On page 157 of the AoR Beta in the third paragraph under "Recovering From Strain" it says, "It is also rumored that some Jedi have mastered a technique that allows them to ignore the effects of strain, or ease the minds of others to help them recover more quickly."

That statement would cover Balance and Invigorate if the latter was for others. It would explain why there is less chance of success as well.

Since the rolls would happen at the same time, the Force user would have to choose between using each talent, or splitting the Force dice pool.

I'll admit it's an idea, but the problem again comes around to how Invigorate is written. It makes no mention of being usable on anyone but the person that actually has the talent (which is generally the default for the majority of the talents). Every talent that can affect one's allies is pretty clear on that particular point.

Although, if Invigorate was meant to work on another person, that might explain why they've got different action costs, with Balance being Active (Maneuver) and Invigorate being Active (Incidental), though I'd almost think they'd be switched, with Balance being the Incidental (rolled as part of one's one Cool/Discipline check to recover Strain) and Invigorate being the Maneuver to help an ally recover Strain.

Right now, there's no precedent for "double-dipping" in regards to expenditure of a character's various resources, be they Force Points, Strain, or Destiny Points; you spend one of those to get a single specific effect.

My understanding is that there is "double-dipping" in EotE. Talent Overwhelm Emotions and Force Power Influence Control upgrade for adding white pips to some skills. While this example isn't exactly the same, it is close. Overwhelm Emotions ads a Force Die per Force Rating while Influence allows an Influence Power check as part of the dice pool.

My understanding of how these work with Force Rating 1 is this. If I roll a Coerce check I add a force die (from Overwhelm) as well as a power check (from Influence) . The net result is a skill check with 2 force dice.

I like both of these ideas for Invigorate:

– You can recover wounds with light side points, but you suffer strain with dark side points.

– You can use Invigorate on another character. Because it's an incidental, you can perform your own Discipline/Cool check as a maneuver in the same round.

And I like the observation that since Invigorate is incidental, it can happen at the same time as Balance, during the Discipline/Cool check after an encounter.

I'll ask my group what they like.

Great work all!

Right now, there's no precedent for "double-dipping" in regards to expenditure of a character's various resources, be they Force Points, Strain, or Destiny Points; you spend one of those to get a single specific effect.

My understanding is that there is "double-dipping" in EotE. Talent Overwhelm Emotions and Force Power Influence Control upgrade for adding white pips to some skills. While this example isn't exactly the same, it is close. Overwhelm Emotions ads a Force Die per Force Rating while Influence allows an Influence Power check as part of the dice pool.

My understanding of how these work with Force Rating 1 is this. If I roll a Coerce check I add a force die (from Overwhelm) as well as a power check (from Influence) . The net result is a skill check with 2 force dice.

Sorry, but you're dead wrong. With Force Rating 1, you've only got a single Force die to roll, so you have to choose one or the other. What you're suggesting is along the lines of saying that if a PC has a blaster pistol in one hand and a vibroknife in the other, they'd get to make both a Ranged (Light) and Melee attack roll on the same action, which is pretty clearly how the system does not work.

Don't believe me? There's an option to ask FFG directly thru customer support (link can be found by navigating through the toolbar at the top of the forum page). Sam Stewart is generally pretty good about responding to questions (unless your HappyDaze for some reason). I'd be very surprised if he agreed with your interpretation.

Right now, there's no precedent for "double-dipping" in regards to expenditure of a character's various resources, be they Force Points, Strain, or Destiny Points; you spend one of those to get a single specific effect.

My understanding is that there is "double-dipping" in EotE. Talent Overwhelm Emotions and Force Power Influence Control upgrade for adding white pips to some skills. While this example isn't exactly the same, it is close. Overwhelm Emotions ads a Force Die per Force Rating while Influence allows an Influence Power check as part of the dice pool.

My understanding of how these work with Force Rating 1 is this. If I roll a Coerce check I add a force die (from Overwhelm) as well as a power check (from Influence) . The net result is a skill check with 2 force dice.

Sorry, but you're dead wrong. With Force Rating 1, you've only got a single Force die to roll, so you have to choose one or the other. What you're suggesting is along the lines of saying that if a PC has a blaster pistol in one hand and a vibroknife in the other, they'd get to make both a Ranged (Light) and Melee attack roll on the same action, which is pretty clearly how the system does not work.

Don't believe me? There's an option to ask FFG directly thru customer support (link can be found by navigating through the toolbar at the top of the forum page). Sam Stewart is generally pretty good about responding to questions (unless your HappyDaze for some reason). I'd be very surprised if he agreed with your interpretation.

Thanks for directing me towards the customer support, Donovan. I did ask and Sam did agree with you. I had figured you could do both because they were different things, One was a Talent which added a Force Die and the other was a Force Power. (IMHO slightly different than the Ranged Light and Melee attack examples, which are both combat skills.) I'll rationalize this to myself that I'm spending Force Dice to use the talent as opposed to the talent checking the Force Die number. This now makes me question the point of the Overwhelm Emotions talent, but that's a question for the EotE board.