Hey all,

I understand that the best thing to do is match like maneuver decks with like maneuver decks (i.e. A and B deck vs. A and B deck) but it would make much more sense to me to have a point value for each plane. This way you could have all kinds of different decks facing off against one another in a balanced fashion.

Also, why is that a Fokker DR I piloted by Manfred von Richthofen (you know, the Red freaking Baron!)) is just as good as all the other pilots; even if the other Fokker DR I aces from the FA set were good, I thoght the RB was the aces ace. A cool optional rule would be to give different pilots special abilities of some sort.

Admitedly, I have played all of 2 games and am not as knowledgeable in re: to WWI, so please feel free to correct me if I am wrong .

VJ

VJ - have a more in depth look here at this site, at the WoW Italian site, at Boardgame Geek and at Yahoo News. You'll find an array of Optional Ace rules as well as other optional rules and suggestions. Many of your questions have already been answered.

Plane point values have also been computed by several players.

My games are based on historic plane availability. I have divided 1916 to late 1918 into six (6-month) time periods. Each plane available in that period receives one or more numbers on a twenty-sided die, correlating to an availability percentage against other aircraft choices in that timeframe. Each player rolls for their resultant aircraft, thus its possible (albeit rare) for Albatross planes to encounter Sopwith Snipes in late 1918.

This final remark may spark some retort, but arguably, despite his record, Von Richtofen was a good figher pilot, not a great one. Many historians consider Voss to be the best pilot that Germany had to offer in WW1.

Many Historians on the subject of Von Richthoffen state that even by his own sides standards he was a poor pilot but both an excellent leader and tactician coupled with a ruthless accuracy. Many pilots outflew him not many outthought him or out shot him.

80 confermed kills in such a short time leads me to believe that he was no slouch. Granted you can get a few kills just by getting the "jump on them, but you still need to enguage most of them like we do in the game. Think about having a plane on the table with most of the Ace Special Skills from any of the forums or Knights of the Air, with a couple of wing men, VS a group of regular planes. He would be almost impossible to kill. You would be praying for the Explosion card to come up! Actually that sounds like fun - I think I'll try it sometime.

Charlie3 said:

Between the generally-superior acft. he used, and the general awfulness of Western Powers flight training, it's no wonder he ran up a count.

Look at what the Germans did to the Soviets in the next go-'round -- not only were Soviet pilots and planes awful, there were a *lot* of them; thus Erich Hartmann polled *352* kills -- *that we know of*....

intersting debate. in our campaign im finding the german triplane quite weak. we dont play altutude rules so that might make a big difference if we did.

historically the fokker triplane had a big impact on the war, in particular the 1917 era. id like to encourage pilots to fly the triplane somehow by making it more competitive to fly versus allied fighters from the same era (sopwith camel and spad XIII).

not sure how this would work but id base it one the climb and dive manouvre cards. the triplane had one of the fastest rates of climb and used it to great effect to evade and attack other planes from above and below. maybe allow it to attack other planes without being shot back at every other turn?

Cripes - how about a little fact finding before posting inaccurate WW2 historical details???

Russia had its share of WW2 aces - the highest scoring ace being Ivan Kozhedub with 62 kills. More impressive is Russia's number 2 ace who flew P-39s - an aircraft rejected by the Western nations for the air-to-air combat role.

Russia's highest decorated Air Force unit was an all-female regiment. The "Night-Witches" were assigned outdated Po-2 (cropduster) bi-planes in which to do battle. A record 18 (bombing) missions a day were once carried out - war survivors logged over 1000 combat sorties each. 23,000 total bombing missions, 38 air-to-air combat kills, and only 31 losses. Not bad for a cropduster.

Notwithstanding, Russian pilot training and tactics were wholly inadequate for the first half of the war. This allowed most of the high scoring German aces to achieve extremely high kill ratios on the Eastern Front as compared to the Western Front. Then came the later half of the war...

Late model Russian aircraft on the other hand, were on "generally" on par with the German Me-109F/G and FW-190A planes - many were inferior but others were considered superior. Late model Lavochkin and Yakolev fighters, and Pe-2 and IL-2 ground attack bombers were all excellent planes. Recall that the Luftwaffe had ordered a directive in late 1944 for its pilots to avoid combat under 5000 metres on (Yak-3) aircraft lacking an oil cooler under the nose - the Yak-3 was an outstanding dogfighter and is considered by many historians to be a top 10 fighter of the war.

I digress - this is afterall a WW1 forum.

I too find the Fokker DR.1 lacking in the game - much like the SPAD, but in a different way. I'll take a Pfalz III anyday instead. While the DR.1 had a good (initial) climb rate, it also dove poorly. If you modify the DR.1 climb rules I would argue that you would likewise have to boost the dive rules for the Camel, SE5A and SPAD. I would also disallow the DR.1 invulnerability rule you propose if I played in your campaign. Recommend that you play with the altitude rules; it won't make a huge difference but it will provide a small boost to the DR.1 (and also to the SPAD). Further consider that if you are playing a historical campaign of sorts, the axis player should be fielding about 20 Albatross fighters for every Fokker Triplane in the game.

I don't think that the DR.1 made a big impact on the war as it only flew a few months in service from late 1917 to early 1918. The 320 that were built suffered from mechanical and design flaws. IMO its fame surpassed its notoriety. Arguably, its greatest contribution was that its failures led to development of the Fokker DVII.

SHVAK said:

I did say "generally awful" -- every group produces its share of "gods" out of the mass of "clods" (and an interesting statisical detail: There's no such thing as an "average pilot"; there's a few folks who score the largest part of the kills, and the rest who provide targets for those few). Same for the equipment.

And, as you mention, it took half the war before the Soviets pulled their [ahem] collective finger out and started designing decent acft.; meanwhile, their opponents conspicuously failed to develop better equipment until it was all over. Had the Germans stayed ahead on the development curve.... (Also, you point out that the 2nd-rated ace used a non-Soviet product for his work.... )

[bringing this back on-topic with all the subtlety of a chainsaw] In WW1, the Germans were continuously developing their acft.; they were almost always flying superior products -- just not in large-enough numbers, or with sufficient rear-echelon support. They managed to almost win the first go-'round -- *almost*....

The Red baron was not a particulary good flier, or at least that is what he said himself. He was however an exceptional marksman and tactician so yes, there should be some difference for his plane.

The current problem with Wings of war is that the campaign rules needs to be made. Some people do have made some nice customized rules but they are not flexible enough so that brilliant pilots like Udet, Richtoffen, Nungessar and Bishop can be used.

I also play Canvas eagles ( www.eaglesmax.com/index.html ) using the same planes and it's campaigns rules makes them better for long campaigns or if you use real aces to play. Wow is brilliant for a single evning game but we really need some kind of official rules how to handle aces, experience and so on.

Some real scenarios would also be fun, like Jasta Boelkes last fight (only fight when they actually faces Sopwith Snipes, they shot down 5 of 6 Snipes). Hmm maybe I should write that one down

Wings of war is a very good game but it really needs an "Wings of WAR: Aces" campaign book. And some decks for the aces.