Ok, I think I've read enough... and the question I haven't seen asked yet is where in the Rules As Written does it say that you do not get back the extra XP? and no, a fan podcast is not RAW.

The rules as written state that 'These skills now count as career skills for the character (although he does not gain any free advances in them, as he did with his first specialization) Page 93, 2nd paragraph under Acquiring New Specializations... and that's all I've found in the rules as written.

I happen to agree with Emperor Norton in all aspects expect one... it is not a discount... it is xp earned with blood sweat and tears and should be spendable by the player as they see fit...

If they have earned a total of 193xp over time then they should be able to spend 193xp... it's not game breaking in the slightest and there is ZERO tracking... Oh wait... here is the tracking... I buy a new spec, I look to see if any of the 4 skills are a) already not class skills, and b) have I bought any ranks in them... give 5 xp for every rank in them... problem solved.

It's how I will be running my game... and any of you are welcome to join it.

And once the XP is spent it is spent. That is why the rules don't say that you DO get the XP back for buying into a specialization.

Yeah, I have no illusions as to what the RAW says. I'm 100% saying what I suggested is a house rule that could be considered by people who prefer to have that kind of interaction of specializations and non-career skills.

Ok, I think I've read enough... and the question I haven't seen asked yet is where in the Rules As Written does it say that you do not get back the extra XP? and no, a fan podcast is not RAW.

The rules as written state that 'These skills now count as career skills for the character (although he does not gain any free advances in them, as he did with his first specialization) Page 93, 2nd paragraph under Acquiring New Specializations... and that's all I've found in the rules as written.

I happen to agree with Emperor Norton in all aspects expect one... it is not a discount... it is xp earned with blood sweat and tears and should be spendable by the player as they see fit...

If they have earned a total of 193xp over time then they should be able to spend 193xp... it's not game breaking in the slightest and there is ZERO tracking... Oh wait... here is the tracking... I buy a new spec, I look to see if any of the 4 skills are a) already not class skills, and b) have I bought any ranks in them... give 5 xp for every rank in them... problem solved.

It's how I will be running my game... and any of you are welcome to join it.

And once the XP is spent it is spent. That is why the rules don't say that you DO get the XP back for buying into a specialization.

Again... where in the book does it say you don't get it back?

Yeah, I have no illusions as to what the RAW says. I'm 100% saying what I suggested is a house rule that could be considered by people who prefer to have that kind of interaction of specializations and non-career skills.

Also if you have no illusions, there where does it say you don't get it back?

We're talking rules as written... I've gone over what I think are everything concerning the spending and getting of experience points and nowhere does it say 'once spent their gone'...

Because it doesn't need to be said. The book also doesn't say, "Don’t punch you players in the face if they don't like a ruling you make." Because it doesn't need to be said.

Once something is gone it is gone, this is the implied meaning, it should be clear. You’re asking where it says that you don't get the points back, but the very nature of "spending" is that it is gone once you spend it. For example, if you upgrade a ships weapons, say from a Blaster Cannon (light) to a Quad Laser Cannon, you don't get back the 4000 credit difference just because you are now buying something different. It is the same principal in the use of exp. That's why not giving the players a discount and not refunding them exp is implied.

The negative (the points are gone) is implied by the nature of a game system. The affirmative (you get points back or this provides a discount) must be stated. No where does it say you get the points back, or you get the specs at a discount. Which is why it must be a house rule this is a house rule that Emperor Norton uses.

Edit: I should note, that it may be possible in my weapon upgrade example that the players may be able to sell their old weapon, but (if the GM even allows this) they will probably only get back half of the 4000 a Blaster Cannon (light) is worth if that. also, this would be a seprate thing because they wouldn't get the money by default and they would need to actively sell it thus making varried skill checks and such.

Also if you have no illusions, there where does it say you don't get it back?

We're talking rules as written... I've gone over what I think are everything concerning the spending and getting of experience points and nowhere does it say 'once spent their gone'...

It doesn't need to tell you that you don't get it back. Once you buy the rank, its SPENT EXPERIENCE. I don't get how you can think there is ambiguity in the rules, because there isn't. There is exactly zero ambiguity. There is no mention of getting the experience back, none.

It says these skills NOW count as career skills. That isn't retroactive. It doesn't say "these skills are now always considered to have been career skills." It says NOW. As in, at the moment you take it, it now is a career skill.

It wasn't a career skill when you bought the skill rank, so it costs 5 more xp. Just because its a career skill NOW doesn't mean it was THEN.

There is no indication in the rules at all that you would get the points refunded/discounted off the spec. It is 100% a house rule, and one I enjoy, but there is no intent in the official rules for you to read into.

It like saying that because the rules don't tell me I can't one handed choke slam a fully grown Krayt Dragon, its the intentions of the rules that I can.

Ok, I think I've read enough... and the question I haven't seen asked yet is where in the Rules As Written does it say that you do not get back the extra XP? and no, a fan podcast is not RAW.

The rules as written state that 'These skills now count as career skills for the character (although he does not gain any free advances in them, as he did with his first specialization) Page 93, 2nd paragraph under Acquiring New Specializations... and that's all I've found in the rules as written.

I happen to agree with Emperor Norton in all aspects expect one... it is not a discount... it is xp earned with blood sweat and tears and should be spendable by the player as they see fit...

If they have earned a total of 193xp over time then they should be able to spend 193xp... it's not game breaking in the slightest and there is ZERO tracking... Oh wait... here is the tracking... I buy a new spec, I look to see if any of the 4 skills are a) already not class skills, and b) have I bought any ranks in them... give 5 xp for every rank in them... problem solved.

It's how I will be running my game... and any of you are welcome to join it.

The RAW don’t say that you don’t get a free rank in a skill every five ranks. The rules don’t say a lot of things.

Seriously, I get it when you say that this is how you and your friends prefer to play the game. What I don’t get is how it is logically possible to get to the conclusion that whenever you “buy” a new spec. you automatically get a “refund” (and yes, this is a refund) for previously purchased skills.

Seriously, I get it when you say that this is how you and your friends prefer to play the game. What I don’t get is how it is logically possible to get to the conclusion that whenever you “buy” a new spec. you automatically get a “refund” (and yes, this is a refund) for previously purchased skills.

If you are referring to my house rule (and it is very much a house rule) I disagree with this assessment because it may be a fine line, but there are implications.

Its a discount, not a refund. Just because its the same amount extra that I spent on the skills does not mean its a refund of those points, its a discount on the Specialization. I'm not getting anything back, I'm getting the Specialization for cheaper.

If it was a refund, I would have to have the say, 30xp to spend on the specialization to be refunded 15. But I don't. Its a discount. so I only need 15xp. There is a difference.

(its also a difference from a narrative standpoint, in which the training in things outside your normal training prepares you to take on a new specialization, which you learn easier, rather than somehow you magically get the time back you spent into training your skills because you learned a specialization.)

If it is intended to be a discount rather than a refund, I'd suggest it not be allowed to reduce the cost of gaining a specialization below 0 regardless of how many previously non career skills become career skills.

If it is intended to be a discount rather than a refund, I'd suggest it not be allowed to reduce the cost of gaining a specialization below 0 regardless of how many previously non career skills become career skills.

Exactly. It is a refund because the possibility exists that allows the player to get back XP that was previously invested in skills purchase.

If it is intended to be a discount rather than a refund, I'd suggest it not be allowed to reduce the cost of gaining a specialization below 0 regardless of how many previously non career skills become career skills.

Its an edge case, and its easier math to just allow it to go under zero than to worry about a weird 5-10 xp gain.

It requires 5 ranks (minimum 55xp spent) on the cheapest possible second spec (in career, second spec).

Once you move past that it gets to absurd levels to try and hit a point where the discount takes it under 0. Say 3rd specialization outside of career 40xp. That would require 9 ranks, 4 first ranks (40 xp spent), 4 second ranks (60 xp spent), 1 third rank (20 xp spent). That is a minimum of 120 xp spent in a very specific way to get it to go under 0. That is a huge chunk of xp and would take 8 sessions to reach if you follow the 15xp a session pace.

And that is assuming you have NONE of the skills on your career list and are perfectly distributing them in order to buy the cheapest ones. If even one of the skills is already on your skill list, you are looking at a minimum of 135 xp. And it continues to climb from there.

My point is, the chances of running into an edge case like that are very low in actual play, and if they do happen, I would rather just give the edge to the player.

Reminds me of those extreme couponers shows where they somehow get the store to pay them money to take the product home. It makes me scratch my head when I see it on the television, and I don't think I'd enjoy that as a model for a ruling.

Eh, the way I see it you could rule either way (allow under zero or not allow under zero) and it wouldn't make much of a difference.

I just prefer to rule in favor of the player in most cases.

I mean you would have to practically be TRYING to get it under 0, cause that is a lot of ranks. and if you were doing that... why? Why not just buy it when it was 0?

Ok, I think I've read enough... and the question I haven't seen asked yet is where in the Rules As Written does it say that you do not get back the extra XP? and no, a fan podcast is not RAW.

The rules as written state that 'These skills now count as career skills for the character (although he does not gain any free advances in them, as he did with his first specialization) Page 93, 2nd paragraph under Acquiring New Specializations... and that's all I've found in the rules as written.

I happen to agree with Emperor Norton in all aspects expect one... it is not a discount... it is xp earned with blood sweat and tears and should be spendable by the player as they see fit...

If they have earned a total of 193xp over time then they should be able to spend 193xp... it's not game breaking in the slightest and there is ZERO tracking... Oh wait... here is the tracking... I buy a new spec, I look to see if any of the 4 skills are a) already not class skills, and b) have I bought any ranks in them... give 5 xp for every rank in them... problem solved.

It's how I will be running my game... and any of you are welcome to join it.

The rules also don't say that you cannot hold your GM at gun point for all the XP you want but it doesn't mean you can do it. The absence of a rule does not mean that you can do it. The player DID spend 193 XP. If he bought non-career skills its more expensive. It doesn't mean he didn't spend the XP. He chose to gain those skills at a more expensive point in his PCs life.

Regarding Order 66 Podcast, I'll have the check the episode, but that fan podcast regularly has the DESIGNER of the game as well as co-designers and developers on for rules questions. There's a very, very good chance that question was answered by Jay Little (lead designer, Edge of the Empire), not GM Dave or GM Chris. Don't be so quick to write off a "fan podcast".

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree... using words like 'implied' and then examples such as the 'rules don't say you can hold a gun to the GMs head' doesn't answer anything.

Your using the term RAW... Rules As Written... and this is wrong. The rules as written do not say either way if you get the XP back or not... so RAYIT is the right term... Rules As You Interpret Them...

I choose to Interpret them differently.

You are failing debate 101 - not only can you not prove a negative (just like you can't prove God doesn't exist, for an example), but you are making the argument that a set of rules that works in the positive (it tells you what you can do) should instead state the negative (tell you what you can't do, and if it isn't mentioned, it means you can do it).

It is up to you to prove the rules state you can get a refund in XP, not their responsibility to prove it says it doesn't (and I've never known a set of rules to say you do get a refund for any reason).

So, where in the rules does it say you get a refund? Because unless it explicitly states you do get a refund, the rules as written would not support you getting a refund, ergo meaning you don't.

I'm a little hesitant to poke my head into this debate, since it seems to be getting pretty heated, but here goes:

Has anyone considered this from a campaign balance standpoint, as opposed to a purely mechanical game balance standpoint? I'm getting the feeling that the developers knew what they were doing when they set the XP prices for the various skills, talents and specializations. Letting players refund and/or regain previously spent XP is going to make them proportionally more powerful than other player characters who have played for a corresponding period of time.

Looking at the recommended XP rewards and the prices for increasing things, EotE is not a game with a particularly slow character progression. This may not be much of an issue if you're playing a short campaign or with a group that meets and plays infrequently, but any long-term campaign is going to feel the effects of this pretty quickly. The GM might find himself with some very overpowered players after a while.

Has anyone considered this from a campaign balance standpoint, as opposed to a purely mechanical game balance standpoint? I'm getting the feeling that the developers knew what they were doing when they set the XP prices for the various skills, talents and specializations. Letting players refund and/or regain previously spent XP is going to make them proportionally more powerful than other player characters who have played for a corresponding period of time.

Incorrect. Using my house rule, the only difference is in the immediate (usually 2-3 sessions of play) not in the long run.

The only thing it does is make buy specializations => buy skill ranks cost the same as buy skill ranks => buy specializations.

On top of that, even if it DID speed up progression, which it doesn't, what difference does it make when it applies to everyone at the table?

The only thing it does is make buy specializations => buy skill ranks cost the same as buy skill ranks => buy specializations.

While I haven't looked that closely at the numbers, if it doesn't change anything then I see no reason to change anything. if it helps with your immersion, great. I've never had any issues between the mechanics of a game, including character advancement, and playing the game so something like this really does nothing for me.

I like this. For me (and at the risk of repeating things other people have said in the previous 6 pages), this addresses a chief problem that I have with the system, which is that there is a clear advantage to buying more specializations before buying ranks in the non-career skills associated with those specializations. The game should not, IMO, prioritize efficiency of spending XP over character development (or, phrased another way, the game should not railroad players more than it already does*).

I plan on letting players, when they buy ranks in a non-career skill (species-granted ranks don't count), declare which specialization the "extra" 5 XP/rank is going toward. That XP will basically count as already having been spent on that specialization, so it'll be cheaper when they buy it. Same result as Emperor Norton's proposal, but with a tiny bit of bookkeeping to help players keep track of what they're working toward.

(Yay, my game's first house rule. )

* The strongest example I can think of: at character creation, purchasing higher ability scores is prioritized over purchasing anything else, since you can't raise them later.

While I haven't looked that closely at the numbers, if it doesn't change anything then I see no reason to change anything. if it helps with your immersion, great. I've never had any issues between the mechanics of a game, including character advancement, and playing the game so something like this really does nothing for me.

It doesn't change NOTHING. It frees up people to work into specializations, or work on a skill without thinking about "am I going to be picking up a specialization down the road that is going to have this skill anyway" and still allow them the same endpoint as someone who meticulously plans out the order of specialization and skill buying to be most efficient.

Does it make some skill buying before buying the specialization more attractive? Probably, in a lot of situations, but it also does still delay when you can buy talents if you buy a bunch of skill ranks first. Point being, it makes changes, it just removes the "this is the most efficient way to buy upgrades" part.

Saying it changes nothing is misunderstanding the rule. Not wanting to USE it is fine, and I have no problem with whatever you choose to do at your table, but it doesn't change NOTHING.

It doesn't change NOTHING. It frees up people to work into specializations, or work on a skill without thinking about "am I going to be picking up a specialization down the road that is going to have this skill anyway" and still allow them the same endpoint as someone who meticulously plans out the order of specialization and skill buying to be most efficient.

Yes it does. The change can be to Your liking or not. but this house rule is set to change something is the system. You are only looking at the end result (and even then there is a difference with the RAW) and that is the WRONG way to look at it.

Think about it like this:

10+5=15 is not the same like 1+1+1+1+...+1=15. not beyond the realm of pure mathematics.

try to pick up 15 boxes of 1kg and move them 10m away and then try to do the same with a 10kg and a 5kg boxes.

Ok, I think I've read enough... and the question I haven't seen asked yet is where in the Rules As Written does it say that you do not get back the extra XP? and no, a fan podcast is not RAW.

The rules as written state that 'These skills now count as career skills for the character (although he does not gain any free advances in them, as he did with his first specialization) Page 93, 2nd paragraph under Acquiring New Specializations... and that's all I've found in the rules as written.

I happen to agree with Emperor Norton in all aspects expect one... it is not a discount... it is xp earned with blood sweat and tears and should be spendable by the player as they see fit...

If they have earned a total of 193xp over time then they should be able to spend 193xp... it's not game breaking in the slightest and there is ZERO tracking... Oh wait... here is the tracking... I buy a new spec, I look to see if any of the 4 skills are a) already not class skills, and b) have I bought any ranks in them... give 5 xp for every rank in them... problem solved.

It's how I will be running my game... and any of you are welcome to join it.

And once the XP is spent it is spent. That is why the rules don't say that you DO get the XP back for buying into a specialization.

Again... where in the book does it say you don't get it back?

Yeah, I have no illusions as to what the RAW says. I'm 100% saying what I suggested is a house rule that could be considered by people who prefer to have that kind of interaction of specializations and non-career skills.

Also if you have no illusions, there where does it say you don't get it back?

We're talking rules as written... I've gone over what I think are everything concerning the spending and getting of experience points and nowhere does it say 'once spent their gone'...

In a book that outlines procedures for doing things...the very act of NOT saying something suggests i'ts not allowed. How many millions of things could they have said NOT to do in the book at some point?

If you look at XP as exactly what they are (ie - experience) what you've spent is gone. The time I spend learning computers in my life is time I spent learning it. Just because I get a degree doesn't mean I get to spend "unused" knowledge on something else and learn it without effort. What it does mean is that now I have a degree, (idealy) learning computer related things in the future will hopefully be easier now I have a body of knowledge and experience to draw from.

Refunding skill points just goes against the spirit of the game, IMO.

Yes it does. The change can be to Your liking or not. but this house rule is set to change something is the system. You are only looking at the end result (and even then there is a difference with the RAW) and that is the WRONG way to look at it.

Think about it like this:

10+5=15 is not the same like 1+1+1+1+...+1=15. not beyond the realm of pure mathematics.

try to pick up 15 boxes of 1kg and move them 10m away and then try to do the same with a 10kg and a 5kg boxes.

Uh, I was refuting the fact that he said it changed nothing. I was disagreeing with him. The first sentence from my quote that you have in your post is "It DOESN'T change NOTHING." As in, it changes things. His assessment was that it changed nothing. I disagreed with him and said it does change things, and now you are disagreeing with me and saying it does change things. Either I'm not following your logic or you really need to read my posts better.

My specific comment was: It makes the endpoint the same, but the journey is different.

Also I would like to know what the difference is as far as endpoints? What I mean by endpoints is that it changes the order you can buy things and still get the same end result with the same amount of XP. By RAW, the only way to reach that endpoint within the same time period is to buy the specialization first. The change this makes is allowing that endpoint to be reached at the same speed from two different directions.

But it doesn't make someone with 300 XP given to them over the course of the campaign able to learn MORE than any other person who has 300 XP given to them over the course of the campaign.

But it doesn't make someone with 300 XP given to them over the course of the campaign able to learn MORE than any other person who has 300 XP given to them over the course of the campaign.

In a system with career skills vs non-career skills, that cost different amounts of XP, one player who spends 300xp could very well have more talents and skills than someone else who spent 300xp.

If you look at XP as exactly what they are (ie - experience) what you've spent is gone. The time I spend learning computers in my life is time I spent learning it. Just because I get a degree doesn't mean I get to spend "unused" knowledge on something else and learn it without effort.

Refunding skill points just goes against the spirit of the game, IMO.

While I agree 100% its a house rule, I really think you are doing the same thing everyone else is doing to infer that I have a low grasp of reality: I am in no way suggesting you magically get the time back you spent learning computers because you got a degree.

Its that you get that degree easier because you've learned computers.

And looking at Specializations like degrees is a bit silly anyway. Specializations are an abstract grouping of skill discounts and talents. They aren't a real thing. They are a pacing mechanic for character growth.