Hi all.

Reading the description of Obliviates in Creatures Anathema, I was wondering how exactly do they differ in comparison to 'normal' Servitors? It is mentioned that the victims original soul is destroyed in the process of creating an Obliviate, but isn't more or less the same happening in Servitor creation/construction? If not, what really is the difference (and why); and if yes, how do they differ at all?

Thanks.

I look at it like a three level distinction.

Level one would be a mind wiped character.

Level two would be for servitors. Lobotomized but still functionally alive. Not quite a vegetative state. Basic motor functions from the brain telling the heart to pump and the lungs to breath all other directives coming from the implants.

Level three would be a completely blank shell of flesh controlled completely through implants. They may not even register to a psyker as being alive. If the implants didn't tell the flesh to breath it wouldn't.

It would be a very, very fine line between two and three. Such a fine line that if the person creating the servitor makes a slight error(one degree of failure) the servitor becomes an obliviate and must be destroyed. The Imperium does not tolerate animated dead flesh, especially animated dead flesh controlled by a cogitator. That treads too close to A.I.

As far as I understood the CA, there is no "real" difference between a servitor and an obliviate. Perhaps a servictor was better "re-programmed" so he is not drooling and have this weird, flickering look on his face.

The fact why the =I= is so hard on this matter is (to me!) that the Hereteks claimed they would destroy the soul, spreaded this and the people believed (after all, this Oblivates behave different to Servitores). So, claiming that "it is no different" had the danger that the people would start to believe the imperium is destroying souls (a HORRIBLE ACT) with there ways.

Of course, the Imperium can´t simply stop using servitores. And the masses do not know that there is no difference. The mechanicus points it out, but (as the fluff in the article in the CA says) is ordered by the =I= to assist in hunting down these "soulless creatures".

To put a long story short: the difference is the Obliviates have a story tagged to them that gives them a value as a terror weapon (much like the ninja mystic-tales of old japan) and the Imperium can´t "disspell" it without risking to cut themselves.

Oh, and if I remember right, the Oblivates have a much lesser machine trait and are somewhat more agile then the servitores. Perhabs simply not that much parts changed, just the "brain" and some minor implants like teeth and claws.

Maybe I'm misremembering the descriptions of servitors, but I was under the impression that they were manufactured from the dead, with the flesh and parts of the brain artificially preserved. Or is it only skull drones that are manufactured from the dead?

You are misremembering. A servitor is what you get when you first lobotomize a human and then put massive amounts of augmetics into him. Depending on the amount of implants involved (and more specifically, what other stuff is cut away), it may of course be necessary to hook up the biological parts onto a life support unit.

And then we can get back to the philosophical question about when exactly a human is considered dead - because "brain functions reduced to pattern recognition and muscular control" might get close to that.

This works out in my version of how souls exist and function in 40k. An obliviate would either have the sentient resonance of their minds changed, or the synaptic pathways that form sentience are simplified (read removed) to the point where they don't form the right saturation point for a warp shadow cross over.

Hellebore

A Servitor, as mentioned before, is lobotomized, refit to do what they function they must do, and their largely alive (if malnourished and the like). Gav Thrope in Last Chancers described how becoming a Servitor you can remember that you were once something more, yet can't remember what and are forced by augmetic implants in your brain to continually toil as ordered by your commanding Tech-Priest.

Servo-Skulls are basically the same thing as oblivates, the difference being that the skull "once had a soul within it" and thus it's not the same as a "soulless machine". Also, the "soul was sent off to the Emperor" as opposed to "destroyed". In the 40k world, there's a big difference there.

An Obliviate, as was mentioned before, is completely and totally dead, then ressurected by machinery. If you want me to go science nerd on you, the machinery would be giving off electrical impulses to the nerves, thereby manipulating the body like a Servitor's. The difference of course being that these are back-alley constructs, unlike the Servitor's Cranial Implants, and thus the Hereteks haven't managed anything beyond a creature that attacks in close combat Night of the Living Dead style. Of course, its body would be falling apart and eventually wouldn't work anymore, but that still doesn't stop it from being an excellent scare-tactic.

And one more thing as well: As for the soul, the soul in 40k is simply an extra-dimensional representation of a person.

Warp = A dimension where the concept of time does not exist and its laws of physics are governed by thought and emotion.

Soul = The total sum of all your thoughts and emotions

Baby Chaos Gods or Daemon = A raging tide of thoughts and emotions that has become semi-sentient, though they dream of reality like we dream of the warp (both of us percieve it different) and can holds its shape together so that it does not become lost in the warp.

Chaos Gods = The above, except with worship added. By the concept of worship the Gods are given an identity and thereby become fully sentient and capable of invading the physical world and the like.

Daemons devote to Gods = Extensions of the Gods. Think of it this way: We can't perceive 4th Dimensional objects as a whole, but we can see them as a great series of 3 Dimensional objects. Essentially every single daemon that exists and is devoted to a god (Bloodletters and the like) are just us seeing a fraction of one of the Chaos Gods in all of its glory.

Undevoted Daemons = Warp eddies that became Baby Chaos Gods or Daemons. Since they lacked a large cult following worshiping or believing in them, they therefore are transformed into smaller creatures, but nothing too very impressive. They could also potentially be a part of "Minor Gods" or the like (i.e. There is a single Warp Beast God of Fear and Hunting, however it is not worshipped under a name or the worship is so disorganized that it's not as though it's a Khorne or a Tzeencht, note that this minor god thing is purely speculative).

When a person dies, their soul disperses into the warp, becoming nothing more than a series of thoughts and emotions rolling around and dieing out (unless they are absorbed by a Chaos God or the like, though this is the same thing as you eating a nice piece of steak). The physical body's death will kill the soul, but the death of a soul will not kill the body in 40k. Thus what you have is essentially necromancy. The person's soul (and therefore everything that makes them who they are) is long gone, yet their bodies can still be used.

As to the Similca Anima (which I'm surprised nobody has brought up yet!), which the Cult of Death is based around in Disciples of the Dark Gods: Notice how everyone that they ressurected via the warp recently died and those that weren't were not at all together. Their soul was therefore forced back into their bodies, or at least what was left of it. The alternative being pure warp energy put into it, which well... due to the nature of the 41st millennia there are negative thoughts/emotions abound everywhere. Thus it's not as though the zombie is going to go around handing out dandolions.

As to the mechanical part of it: Their mind still contains the chemical memories by which our personality is made up with, however these break down over time as well with rot. Essentially though, the reason the psyker couldn't detect any kind of soul besides a black void is that the same process as the Oblivate was used upon the dead guardsman's body, the difference being that the implants were a bit better.

Ah yes, and before anyone asks about Blanks: Yes, they're a Necron invention and think of it like a Black Hole is to real matter. You can plug one up, given enough time (and insane, insane amounts of matter to throw at it), but unless you throw entire solar systems at the thing... not happening.

I have a query relating to all this talk of the warp. If the soul is absorbed by the warp then would not the warp get stronger with each death? Also if this is true, do nulls and some of their more powerful brethren have the opposite effect on warp? Could they balance each other out?

LordMunchkin said:

What happens to a persons soul when they are killed within the influence of a Null, especially a psyker?

Does their soul return to the warp or is it lost forever, subtly weakening the warp?

Sort of what Agmar said Munchkin, except the whole part of the soul being created by the warp I'm none too keen on. We exist in the 3rd dimension, however does that mean that when we're birthed that it was the 3rd dimension that created us or egg meeting sperm? More over, when we die our corpse is feasted upon by all manner of organisms and the like, does that mean that we're giving birth to maggots, worms, and vultures? Otherwise, the analogy of ice/water is a good one, though I wouldn't say that the warp has a consistent volume. It has times where the volume increases (see births of Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeencht) and decreases (See Enslavers).

As for the Blank effect... that one is an interesting one. The Black Hole analogy is the best one I can come up with. As Dan Abnett showed in Eisenhorn/Ravenor Rogue, a strong enough psychic blast can overwhelm a blank's warp neutralizing capabilities. However, in all cases this has been through prolonged exposure to ungodly powerful psykers (in the case of Ravenor the blank spent several month in company of a psyker capable of reflecting other psyker's energies *AND* a daemon capable of devouring worlds. Truth be known it was more the daemon involved, but hush) or the presence of an inexplicably strong psychic phenomena (In Hereticus, a novel in the Eisenhorn series, this was the sum conciousness of every single pilot of a Banelord Titan, the Banelord's anima concious, and the daemon which have subverted said conciousness).

As for the balancing effect... I like the way you think and I must say I'm enjoying these boards immensely. It seems we get more intellectuals in Dark Heresy as opposed to GW's normal forums . The answer to that is a part of UncertainWho's answer.

To answer your question ItsUncertainWho... I'm entirely sure. However, if I was as bold as to speculate, think about how the Necrons attempted to use a series of technologically created blank pylons to force the warp out of this galaxy. Also, the Necron's solution to Chaos is to enslave all the races and keep them in a stupor, thus making them unable to contribute anything to the warp as a whole. I'd say, judging by the blank pylons effects though, that I wouldn't want to die next to a blank in the 41st millennia .

Interesting thing to bring up too, while I'm at it: It's revealed in GW's first novel ever, Space Marine, that what brought the Tyranids to this galaxy was the Chaos Gods. In the warp, the Hive Mind (Total concious of the Tyranid Race and a Chaos God in its own right) saw the birth of these galactic enetities and thus knew that the Milky Way was teeming with life that they could harvest at whim. Yes, you can blame almost all disasters in the galaxy on either the Necrons, the Old Ones, or Humanity .

The Baron said:

So the only way to defeat the Chaos Gods is to kill every sentient being capable of connecting to the warp? Lets say this happens and the Chaos God's are form again in an age yet unknown. Would they have the same concsiousness or would they be totally new beings unaware of the grand cycle of harvesting?

LordMunchkin said:

Very well done mate . To answer to that is it depends what your definition of victory is.

If victory means killing the Chaos Gods, then yes you'd have to kill each and every single living creature in the galaxy, upon which new gods could be born again at a date unknown with those new conciousses completely unaware of what befell their previous incarnations.

If victory means taking away the Chaos Gods' control and sentience, thereby reducing them to nothing more than really big warp amobeas that can't really do much harm to anybody, then that is far easier and harder.

During the Great Crusade the Emperor took great pride in tearing down religious institution and instead preaching the holiness of science and reason. Remember how I mentioned before that the Chaos Gods require worship to attain and continue to have sentience? Get rid of their worship and suddenly those Gods become, for lack of any bettter word, lobotomized. They're incapable of harming the physical realm.

Before you ask about the Eldar Gods, those are the Old Ones. They didn't have the technological capabilities of the Necrons, but they far outstriped said Crons in their Biological Manipulation capabilities. Eldar, Orks (Gork = Khaine, Mork = Laughing God), Jokaero, the Hrud, and many others (even the Tau, though he was created by the last "living" Old One, the Laughing God Cegorach as a final weapon against both the Necrons and Chaos).

The Tyranids have no connection to said Old Ones (I thought so at first, but then I noticed that in Xenology, the bible of Xenos lore, they provided you with enough information to trace the evolutionary pathway of the Tyranids, where with the other Old One Races there were hints of a common ancestory, like the Eldar and Orks share the same evolutionary ancestor, yet there's a giant jump from pre-sentient creature to sentience, no evidence of evolutionary radiation, and the genome appears to remain completely fixed).

As for the Kroot... that's a heavily debate topic that I will only offer a few theories of. They're definitely not an Old One race. The only reason they attained any manner of technology and civilization was because of the fact that their early ancestors (avians with natural genetic recombiators built into them) literally ate an entire Ork Waaagh!. However, I have speculated that they may be a previously unrecorded Tyranid splinter organism (like the Catachan Devils or Fenris Kraken), but seeing as how there's not much hard evidence to support that and, unlike the Catachan Devils or Fenris Kraken, they bear no obvious Tyranid stigmata... they're sadly most likely nothing more than just a really cool genetic fluke (Poor Kroot... they're like the coolest race ever, yet they keep getting shafted with backstory ).

Back on topic thuogh, the Eldar Gods were living beings (I gather from conjecture in the Eldar Codex that they were capable of transfering their souls into planetoid structures made out of the same material as the Eldar Soul Stones and thus the Crone Worlds at the center of the Eye of Terror are in fact just the bloated and exsanguinated corpses of the Gods, but that's another story for another day and again, this theory hasn't really been accepted... yet ) as is the Emperor, thus why you don't see any rampant warp manifestations running around with them and they have more goals than simple survival (seriously, the Chaos Gods' motives all come down to survival. They corrupt what they can into worshipping them, thereby keeping them alive, and destroy anything that doesn't worship them).

And then there's the C'Tan who are another story in and of themselves...

Ah yes, and also keep in mind that any metal construct with sentience and even the slightest bit of emotion leaves a trace in the warp. That's why the Men of Steel are so greatly feared and the Simulcra Animus (i.e. Artificial Creature) is considered such a deadly sin. I've speculated that humanity defeated the Men of Steel due to the fact that ElectroMagnetic Pulses don't affect us so much, since it's been stated the Men of Iron (Tech-Priests) required flesh and blood people to deal with them. Oh yes, my second theory about the Men of Steel: Obviously seeing as how they turned evil their programming was most likely based upon Windows Vista. Therefore it should be no surprise to anybody that in the end they were an epic failure .