What happens if I had a stress token, and did a white turn while I had a critical effect of Damaged Engine(Treat all turn maneuvers (sharp left OR sharp right) as red maneuvers.)This seems to be a similar situation and could be argued for either option.Reveal – Not Red – Treat as Red - Complete the maneuver -Do no action because of Red maneuver - Gain a stress for doing a Red maneuver.OrReveal – Treat as Red – opponent changes dial.And back to the original question,does R2 astromech have the same problem as Adrenaline Rush?

This seems simple enough to me. Damaged Engine is a permanent effect that moves forward in time. It does not specify a particular timeframe in which the maneuver is considered red, so it must be considered red at all times, including before the reveal step. That means that it is illegal for the player to set his dial to one of the sharp turns in the first place, and that he would suffer the consequences on page 17.

Just a small point - not sure if it changes anything but... the following is a quote from Vorpal Sword about his dialogue with James Kniffen at gencon

"According to a verbal conversation with James Kniffen just now, the "revealed maneuver" for both Fett and the Navigator is whatever's currently showing on the dial. (I'm paraphrasing slightly, of course.) Fett with the Navigator can rotate from any bank to any other bank."

This suggests to me, that when adrenaline rush (AR) is used, that the "revealed maneuver" is white (because even though a red maneuver symbol is on the dial, it is treated as if it were white.) If we're looking at the trigger orders - isn't the second trigger now invalid? as the "revealed maneuver" isn't red.

I suspect AR works as an interrupt in this case. Do we know that triggering conditions must be valid for the triggers to activate and complete? Are there any other cases in X-wing where triggering conditions are invalidated after the trigger?

That suggests the opposite to me. If the revealed maneuver is whatever is showing, the moment the dial is flipped the maneuver will be red. It does not start being considered white until the player chooses to use Adrenaline Rush, which by then is too late to circumvent page 17.

It is entirely consistent with the position I (and others) have been taking here for months. You execute every action one at a time, and check conditions when you execute the effect. You do not check conditions for everything, and then put the effects for everything "on the stack", and then execute the effects one at a time.

Fett and Navigator both say "When you reveal". So, when you reveal the maneuver you as the player decide to use Fett first. He checks, finds a speed 2 right bank, and makes it a speed 2 left bank. Then Navigator checks the dial, finds a speed 2 left bank, and changes it to a speed 1 left bank.

This is EXACTLY identical to the Adrenaline Rush question. You reveal the maneuver and as the player decide to use Adrenaline Rush first. It checks the dial, finds a red maneuver, and makes it white. Then, you check for Red/Stress, find a white maneuver, and do nothing.

Nothing is being invalidated "after the trigger". You check and if the conditions are met you execute the action and if the conditions are not met nothing happens. Then you move on to the next thing, check conditions and take appropriate action. One after another, until all actions that are supposed to take place at this time are done, then move on with the turn.

Edit: Good lord, HOW many rulings is it going to take before you admit the possibility that you are going about this the wrong way? Dark Curse, Turrets, R2/Damaged Engine, Biggs, Fettigator....

I have never once advocated the stack. Other people seem intent on putting that word in my mouth.

Meeting a condition does not require a stack. The trigger itself is not on the stack, but the effects afterwards resolve in a stack like manner, as per the rules regarding simultaneous effects. They both trigger at the same time (no stack), and then the player chooses which order to resolve them in. There is no stack.

The "Stack" is the imaginary pile of effects generated by a single "trigger event". You are advocating that. One trigger, causing multiple actions (Adrenaline Rush and Red/Stress in this case) to all put their effects (make white, change dial) on an imaginary "stack" to be resolved.

If you don't require an imaginary "stack", but instead just execute everything from check to outcome in order, then you will find that the rulings so far in X-Wing have all been entirely consistent with one another.

I'm not advocating that, the rules do. The FAQ clearly demonstrates that when two effects require resolution, the player gets to choose which order they are executed in. That's not an actual stack, but it's awfully close to what you're describing. The problem is that the player gets to resolve the effects only - he has no say in the trigger itself. If you can concede this much (which you should, since it's written quite plainly in the FAQ), then you have to admit that you've been supporting a paradox. If the rules on page 17 didn't trigger when you flipped the dial, then there wouldn't be two effects for the player to choose between.

And if I'm advocating the stack, I'm not the only one. See the Chewbacca example two pages back. Now consider how Chewbacca interacts with Determination.

Of COURSE the rules say that. Which is why ruling after ruling proves your point wrong. I have to give you points for persistence, it takes a special kind of determination to stick with an argument long, long, long after it has been ruled incorrect.

Fett and Navigator are exactly the same, even going so far as to have the exact same trigger event (reveal dial) as Adrenaline Rush and the Red/Stress check. Does it not cause you even a little bit of discomfort to find out they resolve EXACTLY the same way I suggest that Adrenaline Rush and the Red/Stress do?

How about multiple Swarm Tactics? How, if they are all supposed to be going off "At the start of the Combat Phase", are they able to daisy chain along? If Wedge, Luke, Garven and Biggs are all flying, and Wedge and Luke both have Swarm Tactics, by your reasoning both of them would trigger at the beginning of the phase letting Wedge make one ship PS 9 and Luke make another ship PS 8, because Luke was PS 8 when Swarm Tactics "went off" at the beginning of the Combat Phase. But that is NOT how it works, you as the player are allowed to activate Wedge first to make Luke PS 9, then activate Luke to make somebody else ALSO PS 9.

How about target selection with secondary weapons and their interactions with Dark Curse and Biggs?

How about R2 interacting with Damaged Engine? Or what happens if a ship with Damaged Engine tries to do a (white now red) turn?

ALL of these have been addressed, ALL of them are entirely consistent with one another, and ALL of them refute your reasoning.

Nothing is being invalidated "after the trigger". You check and if the conditions are met you execute the action and if the conditions are not met nothing happens. Then you move on to the next thing, check conditions and take appropriate action. One after another, until all actions that are supposed to take place at this time are done, then move on with the turn.

I guess I shouldn't have said invalidated. - my meaning was more along the lines of, when you get to each trigger - before the trigger can go off, the conditions for that trigger still need to be in effect. I think we've seen many times that the game doesn't have memory of prior states. The moment we get to the trigger for the opponent changing the move on a red revealed maneuver with stress - we find that it's white, and thus it doesn't occur. (Does that put it more clearly?) we're probably thinking on the same lines. Perhaps the deeper rules question that's at the core is "Do simultaneous triggers remember the game state at the time of triggering? " or "Do triggers always resolve when they occur" or maybe "can changes in the game state prevent a trigger from occurring resolving"

edit is strikethrough.

May be a ruling here - though it's a fuzzy incomplete one.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1022043/adrenaline-rush-and-stress/page/3

Quoting Vorpal Sword

"It wasn't my question so don't quote me on this, but FFG staff said yesterday that AR can be used to do a red maneuver while stressed."

Quoting Buhallin

"I was the one who asked. May elaborate more when not be on my phone, but answer was that you can do it, but James said directly that he didn't know the rule specifics off the top of his head. I took it ad an intent response rather than a strong binding rules answer."

Someone should pass on these queries to the writers of "The Big Bang Theory". I want to hear Sheldon's explanation on these in a 2 part series finale, what he decides will then be the new ruling.

Someone should pass on these queries to the writers of "The Big Bang Theory". I want to hear Sheldon's explanation on these in a 2 part series finale, what he decides will then be the new ruling.

Rock >> Paper >> Scissors >> Lizard >> Spock >> Page 17

Ravncat - Yes, I think we are on the same sheet of music. I just misunderstood you the first time.

If, as someone indicated, FFG has said 'unofficially' that you can use Adrenaline Rush while Stressed does this solve this conflict?

On a side note. On BBG I can delete an entire thread if I'm the creator. I can't see how to do that here. Ideas?

so does that mean that if you use AR while stressed that the opposing player does not get to choose your move?

so does that mean that if you use AR while stressed that the opposing player does not get to choose your move?

In my view you should still practice playing it as you see fit until an FAQ but it would seem that the intent was yes you can, so I shall play it that way until further notice.

I know the point has been argued and there is no proof either way but the fact that the card is a one shot deal to me supports this ruling.

so does that mean that if you use AR while stressed that the opposing player does not get to choose your move?

In my view you should still practice playing it as you see fit until an FAQ but it would seem that the intent was yes you can, so I shall play it that way until further notice.

I know the point has been argued and there is no proof either way but the fact that the card is a one shot deal to me supports this ruling.

I would tend to agree.

One shot or otherwise, it's still only one point. How much do you expect it to do?

Heck, look at Determination. It's only one point, and you might get some use out of it once every few games.

The dust seems to have settled......but "I have a bad feeling about this!"

You always say that, Forensicus, you always say "I have a bad feeling about this..." drop...

Well, the quote almost worked.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13169967#13169967

FYI,

Was just about to update that here as well

I'm largely comfortable with the ruling. I don't fully understand the "why," and I won't be trying to take this as precedent for anything because the answer wasn't detailed enough for that even if I thought I did, but we've got the right answer.

Cue the abusive gloating!

I don't know about the "right" answer, but it seems as though we've got the definitive one - for now. Grats to you guys.

I don't know about the "right" answer, but it seems as though we've got the definitive one - for now. Grats to you guys.

FFG are the ones who get to decide right and wrong. I consider "right" to be "How we should play it". Ideally, "right" should mean "Consistent with the rules as printed". But not always, and it's up to FFG to decide what's right for it.

Seems that the general guideline for scenarios like this is that when multiple effects are triggered at the same time the active player chooses the order of resolution (excepting 'immediate' effects). After each effect is resolved the game state is updated before the next effect is resolved, which can potentially invalidate effects that were triggered before the game state shift.

As others have said, that approach works with the Swarm Tactics ruling, Adrenaline Rush and Fettigator. It may be counter-intuitive for some of us but at least we now have a consistent body of precedent that may help with future issues.

Seems that the general guideline for scenarios like this is that when multiple effects are triggered at the same time the active player chooses the order of resolution (excepting 'immediate' effects). After each effect is resolved the game state is updated before the next effect is resolved, which can potentially invalidate effects that were triggered before the game state shift.

As others have said, that approach works with the Swarm Tactics ruling, Adrenaline Rush and Fettigator. It may be counter-intuitive for some of us but at least we now have a consistent body of precedent that may help with future issues.

This isn't what James said about the AR issue though. He specifically said that AR keeps the maneuver from ever being red at all - there's no timing resolution question between the multiple effects, because the other effect simply never triggers.

I honestly have no idea how to deal with that timing wise, so I'm just sorta rolling with it as an exception for now. There are too many possible things it MIGHT mean, and we just don't have enough guidance to determine which it is.