You are comparing apples and oranges.

Whereas you seem to be comparing apples to nothing. Would it be too much to ask for you to give and Analogous Example for your view on the timing?

You mean besides the handful of MtG examples I cited? Sorry, comparing apples to oranges isn't inherently superior to comparing them to nothing. Gullwind is committing logical fallacies, whereas I am not.

I'm not committing logical fallacies, the strawmen you are erecting about what I'm saying are. Not quite the same thing.

Apples and oranges, you might say.

I once knew a kid in middle school who was so incapable of original thought that all he could do was repeat the same exact insults that were just used against him. We didn't consider him intelligent either.

Saying "no, YOU'RE using straw man fallacies" doesn't make it any less false. Banality and wishful thinking make for a piss poor combination.

Well, since I never claimed what you said I did, what do you call it?

You either didn't read what I actually wrote, didn't understand what I actually wrote, or you are being dishonest about what I actually wrote. Those are the only three options I see. I'm perfectly willing to assume one of the first two.

We can revisit this topic when FFG gives us their ruling, which I strongly suspect will be an exercise in humility for many of you. Until then, enjoy the forums.

Well this is an Analogy I think

Q: If Chewbacca (the Ship card) receives the Injured Pilot Damage card, can he flip that card facedown without suffering its effect?

A: Yes.

Chewbacca says

When you are dealt a faceup Damage card, immediately flip it facedown

The injured pilot card says

All players must ignore your pilot ability and all your "medal" upgrade cards.

Damage card effects come into play when they are played face up

So in this case both effects happen "When you are dealt a faceup Damage card". However Chewy can choose to perform his flip back over before his ability is cancelled by the card. He can even due to another part of the FAQ, look at the card before he decides to do it. Which I think is identical to the dial, in that you can turn it over see it's a Injured Pilot, then carry out an operation to make it not a Injured Pilot card before it comes into effect. Isn't this exactly the same as turning over the dial, seeing it's a red maneuver and then changing it to a non red maneuver before the other effect comes into play.

Good lord. I have proven AMPLY why I am 100% correct over the past umpteen pages,

Proof generally requires, how do I put it proof, quoting a different game isn't as far as I know proof.

Wasn't Dark Curse and Auto-Blasters one of those timing issues that wasn't a timing issue at all?

I believe it was Blaster Turret, but yes. I think you're right.

Wasn't Dark Curse and Auto-Blasters one of those timing issues that wasn't a timing issue at all?

Yeah doesn't look like a timing issue at all, other than at what point does your Attack count as an Attack.. Which seems to be the whole period of your attack (including declaration), not just when you are rolling dice.

This thread was like this:

Then it got to be more like this:

But then suddenly it got like this:

And now it's pretty much just this:

(unfortunately it's also still very much like the first image)

Good lord. I have proven AMPLY why I am 100% correct over the past umpteen pages, using nothing more than the rules as they exist and a simple understanding of the English language. Do I need to cite you an analagous example in order for you to understand how to turn your wrist whilst holding the dial?

Please go back to playing MtG (exclusively if possible??), you must be one of the coolest, most laid back kinda guys one could ever hope to meet in any game :-)

I wish someone would invent a game called "I've Decided To Stop Being A Troll" and he'd just play that exclusively, instead.

Good lord. I have proven AMPLY why I am 100% correct over the past umpteen pages, using nothing more than the rules as they exist and a simple understanding of the English language. Do I need to cite you an analagous example in order for you to understand how to turn your wrist whilst holding the dial?

Please go back to playing MtG (exclusively if possible??), you must be one of the coolest, most laid back kinda guys one could ever hope to meet in any game :-)

In WW's defense, I really don't think he's trolling. I think he really believes his interpretation is the only rational way of looking at it. I can't fault him for sticking to his guns.

I recognized that. It's where he's gone above and beyond that's the problem. This has long-since ceased to be civil, and he carries the bulk of the responsibility for that.

In WW's defense, I really don't think he's trolling. I think he really believes his interpretation is the only rational way of looking at it. I can't fault him for sticking to his guns.

Well, I apologize for my part. I try not to respond in kind, but I don't always succeed as well as I'd like.

I had a real hard time wondering if this was trolling at first. I honestly think it is just defending the point ad nauseum by now. I really think that we should all just kinda choose the way we want to play it until there is an official FAQ or explanatiion from FFG? If we are in a tournament (I know I won't be, but I am not every player), then maybe it should be discussed what the ruling will be for that tournament?

I had a real hard time wondering if this was trolling at first. I honestly think it is just defending the point ad nauseum by now. I really think that we should all just kinda choose the way we want to play it until there is an official FAQ or explanatiion from FFG? If we are in a tournament (I know I won't be, but I am not every player), then maybe it should be discussed what the ruling will be for that tournament?

Yep totally agree. My issue was not with the reading of the rule. It was with the insistance that it was the only way to read the rule and that anyone that couldn't see that was stupid.

This is exactly how I would deal with it. The tournament organiser discusses it with the players and makes a decision, or they put a note on how it will be played in the tournament pack.

I want to reiterate that I don't think anyone came here to be a troll. But I've read every post in this thread, and wherever it diverged from civility was due in large part to one person's approach. And as I think both cases have been made long since, it's my opinion that person, at least, would be better off not engaging in rules dialogue again in the future. Although, objectively, I doubt he has the character to consider it.

I had a real hard time wondering if this was trolling at first. I honestly think it is just defending the point ad nauseum by now. I really think that we should all just kinda choose the way we want to play it until there is an official FAQ or explanatiion from FFG? If we are in a tournament (I know I won't be, but I am not every player), then maybe it should be discussed what the ruling will be for that tournament?

I think it's nobody's business but the moderaters how people choose to conduct themselves. If you don't like what I have to say, report me and be done with it. This is a thread about Adrenaline Rush, and if you think that coming here to pass judgment on me is in any way more mature than what you've accused me of, I challenge you to reconsider.

Actually no one is trying to judge anyone except for you. I organize the play group at my best friends store and when we have people who cannot and will not have a civilized discussion about rules then we ask them not to participate in any games until they can learn to play nicely. Personally I would have asked you to step outside and not return with an attitude like yours. You can get more people to listen to you if you refrain from calling them names. I use this site to find definitions on rules and see upcoming things, I also have found another use for it as well: thanking my lucky stars a few people here are not in my play group. I have also learned I will not pose any questions on this site as well because I choose not to get into an argument with someone over what is right and what is not. Unless you work for FFG then you have no business stating that one way is the only way it can be. If you do work for FFG please let us know so we can know for sure how this works, plus i'm pretty sure they would love to know how one of there employees talk to their customers. Thanks and lets all quit beating this dead horse, it quit being funny quite some time ago and I don't think this person is capable of seeing anyone else's point of veiw

Actually no one is trying to judge anyone except for you. I organize the play group at my best friends store and when we have people who cannot and will not have a civilized discussion about rules then we ask them not to participate in any games until they can learn to play nicely. Personally I would have asked you to step outside and not return with an attitude like yours.

Alternatively, you're welcome to create your own thread on forum etiquette, supposing you all can keep the thinly veiled allusions to me a little more subtle. But if this thread continues to be hyper focused on me rather than Adrenaline Rush, I'll be forced to report those who can't stay on topic until this thread is either locked or deleted. I doubt it'll do me much good, to be honest.

I have been following this thread since the beginning, maybe you should go back and read the whole thread again, I think your memory is slipping on some of what you have said. Either way this is the last time I will respond to a post from you because i'm not up for arguing with anyone. The point of the game is to have fun and that is not what you are interested in. Personally this is precisely why I never got into playing Magic, the only thing worse than an argument with someone with this kind of of attitude is being in a whole room full of them. Thanks, enjoy your gaming, try to find some way to meet people in the middle. P.S just my OPINION, much like yours on this, but with a name like that it appears your only point in coming here is to stir up arguments. It appears you have got what you wanted and that's the reason I will not respond to any more of your posts. Thank you and good day Sir or Madam

meine gott!

I'm afraid I don't see what my name has to do with anything. It's a dual reference to 40K and an Oasis song.

meine gott!

In himmel!

What happens if I had a stress token, and did a white turn while I had a critical effect of Damaged Engine

(Treat all turn maneuvers (sharp left OR sharp right) as red maneuvers.)

This seems to be a similar situation and could be argued for either option.

Reveal – Not Red – Treat as Red - Complete the maneuver -Do no action because of Red maneuver - Gain a stress for doing a Red maneuver.

Or

Reveal – Treat as Red – opponent changes dial.

And back to the original question,does R2 astromech have the same problem as Adrenaline Rush?

Which is exactly why I have been so adamant about this. The "alternative" interpretation is a train wreck. It causes problems with Adrenaline Rush, R2, Damaged Engine, Turrets, Dark Curse, Biggs, and probably other mechanics I haven't even thought about yet.

If you treat "when" as "when" and not "after" then R2 does not have a problem, neither does Adrenaline Rush, nor is there a problem with the interaction of Damaged Engine and Red/Stress checks.

ALL of these require a single step, with the Maneuver Dial modified by whatever effect modifies it. Adrenaline Rush makes it white, so it is white as far as Red/Stress is concerned. Damaged Engine makes it Red, so it is Red as far as Red/Stress is concerned. R2 makes it Green, so it is Green as far as Red/Stress is concerned.

The only "problem" would be if you have two competing effects like Damaged Engine and R2, but in that case we have the FAQ that lets us know cards/special effects have priority, and if there are two or more cards/specials involved we go with the more difficult.

No inconsistencies throughout the entire thing. Compare that to the alternative, where NOTHING works. Should be an indication of which way to go.

Just a small point - not sure if it changes anything but... the following is a quote from Vorpal Sword about his dialogue with James Kniffen at gencon

"According to a verbal conversation with James Kniffen just now, the "revealed maneuver" for both Fett and the Navigator is whatever's currently showing on the dial. (I'm paraphrasing slightly, of course.) Fett with the Navigator can rotate from any bank to any other bank."

This suggests to me, that when adrenaline rush (AR) is used, that the "revealed maneuver" is white (because even though a red maneuver symbol is on the dial, it is treated as if it were white.) If we're looking at the trigger orders - isn't the second trigger now invalid? as the "revealed maneuver" isn't red.

I suspect AR works as an interrupt in this case. Do we know that triggering conditions must be valid for the triggers to activate and complete? Are there any other cases in X-wing where triggering conditions are invalidated after the trigger?