Conditionality is a function of language, not the game. The game presumes that you speak English, and that you already understand how an implicit "if / then" statement works (or in this case, "when / then"). The game doesn't babysit you through any other portion of the rules (it does not tell you, verbatim, how to physically pick up a dial and rotate your wrist) so I see no reason why that should be the case here.

Now, when I describe them as being triggered effects, I mean that they are events which require a specific condition to be met before they can execute. So, in this particular situation, you're right. There is no specific rules text overriding our natural understanding of English, which means that ONLY the normal rules for applying conditionality stand.

The only leg that you have to stand on is the presumption that the word "when" indicates a negation of the preexisting condition, which is a paradox. That is why I'm telling you that simultaneously "revealing the maneuver" and "changing the maneuver" is physically impossible. One is conditional upon the other. If the maneuver that you reveal is not red in the first place, you cannot use Adrenaline Rush.

Do you still want to argue semantics with me?

I think the problem is that we don't agree with your assumption that it is physically impossible to reveal the dial and play the AR card at the same time. Seems quite possible to me. You flip the dial with one hand and lay the card down with the other hand. Since you are the one who chose the maneuver, you know it is red on the dial. The card modifies it immediately to a white maneuver for game effects. Your insistence that somehow the card needs to "look" at the dial to see if it can trigger is exactly the kind of MtG thinking that RM is talking about.

By your reasoning, if you had a ship with gunner and rolled three focuses with an attack, you could "stop right there" and declare that the attack missed, thus triggering the gunner card. Then you use your focus token to modify the dice and after that make your gunner attack.

Now, I know you don't agree with that, but that's doing the same thing as what you're doing with the dial reveal. The AR card modifies the dial result, but you're stopping that process in the middle and claiming that another effect triggers based on the initial condition but ignoring the fact that the card modifies those conditions. I honestly don't see how you can seperate the playing of the AR card from the dial reveal. I know you don't think "when" actually means "when", but I don't see any other way of reading it.

@Gullwind: Very well put, the gunner/focus example is an excellent one.

@WonderWAAAGH

Fine, write them as IF/THEN statements then.

Reveal Maneuver:

Maneuver=Red

Adrenaline Rush:

IF (Maneuver=Red) THEN (Maneuver=White)

Stress Check

IF (Maneuver=Red) THEN (Opponent Chooses Dial)

Now, I challenge you to write this in a way that supports your assertion. Write a program that would execute both of those during a [Reveal Maneuver] time stop, where the order in which these two execute is immaterial. If you execute [Adrenaline Rush] first, then when you execute [stress Check] NOTHING HAPPENS.

You are trying to execute both IF/condition checks before executing either action associated with them. What you are suggesting is not even the most simple method of executing, much less the only possible way of doing so.

What amazes me is that we go round and round on this subject and others, and have the same problem/disagreement about timing operations every time. The method of resolution you propose doesn't work with Adrenaline Rush, it doesn't work with Dark Curse (and the FAQ confirmed this), and it doesn't work with secondary weapons either (also confirmed). Yet you not only insist that yours is the right way of resolving timing, you insist that it is the only possible way of doing so. It would seem to me that at some point if what you are doing does not work, cannot work, and has been ruled not to work, that you would at least consider the possibility that there is another way of looking at things.

Finally, semantics.

At or during the time that. There is no suggestion here that "when" refers to a precursor. "When I drive my car, I keep both hands on the wheel." This sentence does not suggest that I drove my car, then kept both hands on the wheel. The two occur together, inseparably, with no moment where one exists without the other.

So yes, semantics are important. If what you claim were supported, the text would say "After you reveal a red maneuver, you may discard this card to treat it as a white maneuver until the end of the Activation phase", but it does not. "When you reveal" and "After you reveal" are not synonymous statements.

I think the problem is that we don't agree with your assumption that it is physically impossible to reveal the dial and play the AR card at the same time. Seems quite possible to me. You flip the dial with one hand and lay the card down with the other hand. Since you are the one who chose the maneuver, you know it is red on the dial. The card modifies it immediately to a white maneuver for game effects. Your insistence that somehow the card needs to "look" at the dial to see if it can trigger is exactly the kind of MtG thinking that RM is talking about.

By your reasoning, if you had a ship with gunner and rolled three focuses with an attack, you could "stop right there" and declare that the attack missed, thus triggering the gunner card. Then you use your focus token to modify the dice and after that make your gunner attack.

Now, I know you don't agree with that, but that's doing the same thing as what you're doing with the dial reveal. The AR card modifies the dial result, but you're stopping that process in the middle and claiming that another effect triggers based on the initial condition but ignoring the fact that the card modifies those conditions. I honestly don't see how you can seperate the playing of the AR card from the dial reveal. I know you don't think "when" actually means "when", but I don't see any other way of reading it.

Glad you're having a good time. I think the rest of us are getting more than a chuckle from your posts as well.

The card says "When you reveal a red maneuver, you may discard this card to treat that maneuver as a white maneuver until the end of the Activation phase."

When does that card take effect? Answer: When you reveal a red maneuver. Not afterwards. When. The context seems clear that it happens at the same time. So please cite an example from the rules why it shouldn't take effect when you reveal the maneuver, but afterwards?

We don't need an angel to descend from heaven and change the physical properties of the dial as its being flipped. That is what we have Adrenaline Rush for.

Also, the Gunner example is 100% innacurate, according to the rules. A ship is not considered hit until after the dice are applied, not after they are rolled. The rules explicitly state that there is a dice modification phase before you determine whether a ship is hit or not.

Also, the Gunner example is 100% innacurate, according to the rules. A ship is not considered hit until after the dice are applied, not after they are rolled. The rules explicitly state that there is a dice modification phase before you determine whether a ship is hit or not.

That was the point. I said it was wrong, but that's what you're doing to the dial reveal. Playing the AR card adds to that specific step, but you're stopping it in the middle, applying the triggering conditions, and ignoring the fact that those conditions get modified.

So you agree that you can't "check" to see if triggering conditions have been met until all modifications to those conditions have been completed?

Revealing a red maneuver while stressed: p17:

"If a ship already has a stress token assigned to it

and it reveals a red maneuver during the Activation

phase, the opposing player chooses any non-red

maneuver on that ship’s dial for the ship to execute."

Adrenaline Rush:

"When you reveal a red maneuver, you may discard this card to treat that maneuver as a white maneuver until the end of the activation phase."

Rules contradictions p20, blue box:

"Some abilities on cards conflict with

the general rules. In case of a conflict,

card text overrides the general rules."

I find this to be a typical example of card text overriding the general rules, thus activating a red maneuver while stressed and then choosing to activate Adrenaline Rush would result in that ship performing the desired maneuver.

After reading all of this, this post seems like the one I would follow. I wonder if some of the argument isn't just from a not so clear interpretation of the rules interactions in a competitive tournament? I've always felt that this is the problem when a game is turned into a more tournament-oriented match up. Although to each their own. I know one player's version of fun is different from another, and who am I to decide which version is correct? I'll play the way I want to interpret it with my friends and enjoy the game. That's the point of this, right?

This is EXACTLY the same saddening debate that happened about the Daredevil card: I mean from a regular logical POV it seemed OBVIOUS to me (a non MtG player) that it was the CLEAR intend from the beginning that using Daredevil was meant to give you a Stress token (performing a RED 1-Turn). I was quite puzzled to see how it had to be made clear in the latest FAQ so everyone could understand it.

And here it seems equally obvious to me that the Adrenalin Rush card (which is a single use card, opposed to the astro-mech R2 and Nien Nunb) is meant to make the revealed maneuver white FROM THE BEGINNING, and thus ignoring of nullifying the "redness" of the maneuver revealed.

Or how would you guys play ie. a Y-wing with the Critical Damage " Damaged Engine Ship: Treat all turn (not bank or straight) maneuvers as red maneuvers." when it reveals a 2-turn maneuver on the dial. This is normally white but must be treated as red due to the Crit. Once again, IMO, this ship has just revealed a Red 2 Turn and thus can/must be penalized accordingly.

Note that the most recent FAQ have clarified that the R2 astromech wont help ypu here:

( Q: If two or more game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, which

effect takes priority?

A: An effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver takes priority over an effect that decreases the difficulty. For example, if a ship equipped with R2 Astromech is dealt the Damaged Engine card, all of the ship’s turn maneuvers are treated as red maneuvers, including the 1- and 2-speed turn maneuvers.)

Take into considerations that the Rulebook was written way before the latest cards/abilities came out (and even before they were possibly constructed) so there are many conflicting quirks, and I've been told that this is typical for FFG games.

I feel (overly??) confident that this will be the ruling in the upcoming FAQ

That was the point. I said it was wrong, but that's what you're doing to the dial reveal. Playing the AR card adds to that specific step, but you're stopping it in the middle, applying the triggering conditions, and ignoring the fact that those conditions get modified.

So you agree that you can't "check" to see if triggering conditions have been met until all modifications to those conditions have been completed?

This is EXACTLY the same saddening debate that happened about the Daredevil card: I mean from a regular logical POV it seemed OBVIOUS to me (a non MtG player) that it was the CLEAR intend from the beginning that using Daredevil was meant to give you a Stress token (performing a RED 1-Turn). I was quite puzzled to see how it had to be made clear in the latest FAQ so everyone could understand it.

And here it seems equally obvious to me that the Adrenalin Rush card (which is a single use card, opposed to the astro-mech R2 and Nien Nunb) is meant to make the revealed maneuver white FROM THE BEGINNING, and thus ignoring of nullifying the "redness" of the maneuver revealed.

Or how would you guys play ie. a Y-wing with the Critical Damage "Damaged Engine Ship: Treat all turn (not bank or straight) maneuvers as red maneuvers." when it reveals a 2-turn maneuver on the dial. This is normally white but must be treated as red due to the Crit. Once again, IMO, this ship has just revealed a Red 2 Turn and thus can/must be penalized accordingly.

Note that the most recent FAQ have clarified that the R2 astromech wont help ypu here:]

Q: If two or more game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, which effect takes priority?

A: An effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver takes priority over an effect that decreases the difficulty. For example, if a ship equipped with R2 Astromech is dealt the Damaged Engine card, all of the ship’s turn maneuvers are treated as red maneuvers, including the 1- and 2-speed turn maneuvers.)

Take into considerations that the Rulebook was written way before the latest cards/abilities came out (and even before they were possibly constructed) so there are many conflicting quirks, and I've been told that this is typical for FFG games.

I feel (overly??) confident that this will be the ruling in the upcoming FAQ

Edit: Good lord, your formatting is a god damned nightmare.

My point was that you cannot stop an action in the middle to determine triggering effects for other actions. The AR card adds to the dial reveal, and evidence by the phrase "when you reveal..." You apparently agree that you must consider any modifying effects when determining if triggering events have occured, except in this case. That seems odd.

Not to mention, that in this case we only have one effect that changes the color of a maneuver, so your point about two is meaningless. Yet for some reason you want to ignore that effect and proceed on. That is the problem we are having with your interpretation.

My point was that you cannot stop an action in the middle to determine triggering effects for other actions. The AR card adds to the dial reveal, and evidence by the phrase "when you reveal..." You apparently agree that you must consider any modifying effects when determining if triggering events have occured, except in this case. That seems odd.

Not to mention, that in this case we only have one effect that changes the color of a maneuver, so your point about two is meaningless. Yet for some reason you want to ignore that effect and proceed on. That is the proble we are having with your interpretation.

No, you're wrong. Nothing has to be "stopped" for a trigger to occur. Adrenaline Rush =/= Gunner. They are not the same, so my logic does not apply to only one instance.

Unless you are actually one of the rules designers I really can't see how you can give a definitive answer on how this works. Since you can only see your point of view and no one else's can possibly be right then have a suggestion: why don't you and your group that over analyses the rules play the way you choose and let everyone else do the same as well because no matter rudely you try to apply your OPINION none of it will matter once FFG makes a decision on a card that the majority of us don't even have yet anyway.

My point was that you cannot stop an action in the middle to determine triggering effects for other actions. The AR card adds to the dial reveal, and evidence by the phrase "when you reveal..." You apparently agree that you must consider any modifying effects when determining if triggering events have occured, except in this case. That seems odd.

Not to mention, that in this case we only have one effect that changes the color of a maneuver, so your point about two is meaningless. Yet for some reason you want to ignore that effect and proceed on. That is the proble we are having with your interpretation.

FFS, I don't know how to make this any more clear to you without drawing a diagram with some Crayola crayons.

No, you're wrong. Nothing has to be "stopped" for a trigger to occur. Adrenaline Rush =/= Gunner. They are not the same, so my logic does not apply to only one instance.

No, that's exactly what you said back on page 3:

"Lawl, WHAT?!? The dial is red... but it isn't red. Listen to yourself.

Here's exactly what the card says: "When you reveal a red maneuver..."

OK, that's where you stop. The maneuver is already red. That's all the rule on page 17 needs to trigger. What you treat the maneuver as afterwards no longer matters. You can treat it as being fuchsia if you want, you still revealed a red maneuver."

You are stopping after the dial reveal, and ignoring the part where that dial is modified. I challenge you to find anywhere else in the rules where an effect is triggered without considering any other actions which might modify those conditions. I also challenge you to find an example of the word "when" that does not mean "at the same time as something else" I won't be holding my breath.

The card text says:

Reading page 17 and then looking at the card text I am inclined to believe that, by the rules, a stressed pilot executes a red (turned to white) maneuver but his opponent gets to choose his maneuver. I think that the intent, however, was to not have the dial changing rule come into play.

FFG did not use correct phrasing...again. sigh...

P.17 "While a Ship has at least one stress token, it cannot execute red maneuvers or perform any actions (even free actions).

If a ship already has a stress token assigned to it and it reveals a red maneuver during the activation phase, the opposing player chooses any non-red maneuver on that ship's dial for the ship to execute.

P.20 Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overrides the general rules.

FAQ:

Q: If a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same time, can he resolve them in any order.

A: Yes

Ok, so i've read through all 7 pages of this thread and have had time to chew through this debate and would like to now chime in again. I've posted the relevant rules that apply here and quoted my previous post because I'm about to change my position...

What I see happening is almost the same issue that crippled the autoblaster/Dark curse issue when it came to trying to understand why you could not use the turret to fire.

The argument so far is that revealing a red maneuver triggers both opposing player dial selection and activating adrenaline rush.

If WW is correct, then AR gets played but the opponent still gets to choose your maneuver because a red maneuver has been revealed. If this is true, then the card text stating "treat that maneuver as a white maneuver" gets ignored. But then P.20 rule for card text over general rules gets violated.

Also, that punishment is for being stressed and for " executing " a red maneuver, not attempting one. As AR modifies the red maneuver into a white one, following through with the 'punishment' should not apply as the maneuver has been modified to be white.

You cannot apply a punishment without the infraction.

The opponent selecting a new maneuver is for executing a red maneuver while stressed, which entails revealing a red maneuver on your dial and then attempting to maneuver your ship . In this case with AR, the red maneuver is revealed but modified to become a white maneuver, and must be treated accordingly as per the card text and P. 20 rule.

I have read your argument for timing WW and I agree with it, however other rules also need to be respected, some of which trump the P.17 General rule. Also, timing seems to be another core problem causing forum discontent.

The argument over timing that comes up was summed up rather well by KO and goes to the core of many rules interpretations that have been talked about on these forums. This has led to their being two camps for rules interpretation.

In camp 1 there's stepped timing - like cause and effect in order. eg. "A" happens so then "B" must occur. Good and easy rule system to understand and prevalent throughout the flight path system. Often seen as MtG 'stack' principle.

In camp 2 there's the phased timing - multiple things happen in a phase and some rules will then trump others. More situational based and complex in understanding because it sometimes does not follow cause and effect (see dark curse/autoblaster ruling). " From Doctor Who: People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff. "

In the beginning X-wing was more step timing as the rules were simple and only a few cards modified them. As the game has grown, more cards have come out and more interpretations have to be made from the growing possibilities of combinations, that some rulings are now being made in the "Because I said so" fashion because the basis of timing has not been set down thoroughly and so more phased timing arguments are showing up. As in other forums, FFG has simply made a ruling but not divulged the thought/timing behind the ruling so players are stuck for proper interpretation when new cards come out.

What I will do is propose to FFG that they divulge which camp they are in so that we can at least have a common starting point of understanding. Are they in the Step camp (aka MtG 'stack' principles) or are they in the Phase camp (all things can flow in that phase in a non linear way).

Knowing this answer would help this forum, and all future forum posts.

Unless you are actually one of the rules designers I really can't see how you can give a definitive answer on how this works. Since you can only see your point of view and no one else's can possibly be right then have a suggestion: why don't you and your group that over analyses the rules play the way you choose and let everyone else do the same as well because no matter rudely you try to apply your OPINION none of it will matter once FFG makes a decision on a card that the majority of us don't even have yet anyway.

I see their point of view clearly, it's just that they're wrong. "Well, that's my opinion" is not a valid argument. Try that with a cop the next time you get pulled over and let me know how well that opinion works out for you.

My point was that you cannot stop an action in the middle to determine triggering effects for other actions. The AR card adds to the dial reveal, and evidence by the phrase "when you reveal..." You apparently agree that you must consider any modifying effects when determining if triggering events have occured, except in this case. That seems odd.

Not to mention, that in this case we only have one effect that changes the color of a maneuver, so your point about two is meaningless. Yet for some reason you want to ignore that effect and proceed on. That is the proble we are having with your interpretation.

FFS, I don't know how to make this any more clear to you without drawing a diagram with some Crayola crayons.

No, you're wrong. Nothing has to be "stopped" for a trigger to occur. Adrenaline Rush =/= Gunner. They are not the same, so my logic does not apply to only one instance.

No, that's exactly what you said back on page 3:

"Lawl, WHAT?!? The dial is red... but it isn't red. Listen to yourself.

Here's exactly what the card says: "When you reveal a red maneuver..." OK, that's where you stop. The maneuver is already red. That's all the rule on page 17 needs to trigger. What you treat the maneuver as afterwards no longer matters. You can treat it as being fuchsia if you want, you still revealed a red maneuver."

You are stopping after the dial reveal, and ignoring the part where that dial is modified. I challenge you to find anywhere else in the rules where an effect is triggered without considering any other actions which might modify those conditions. I also challenge you to find an example of the word "when" that does not mean "at the same time as something else" I won't be holding my breath.

I'm not arguing with you anymore. You shot what ever credibility you might have had (and that's a big "might") right in the foot when you tried to convince me that a ship is considered "hit" before your opponent even rolls his defense dice. You can't even get the simple rules right, I fear there's no hope in you comprehending what I'm telling you.

Sergovan - Regarding page 17: "While a Ship has at least one stress token, it cannot execute red maneuvers or perform any actions (even free actions)" is a different clause from "If a ship already has a stress token assigned to it and it reveals a red maneuver during the activation phase, the opposing player chooses any non-red maneuver on that ship's dial for the ship to execute." Ignore the first part - that is simply a preparatory clause telling you that the maneuver is illegal to begin with. The second clause is "punishing" you for the reveal itself, not the execution, which is a physical impossibility in game terms (your opponent can't choose a red maneuver either).

So, when you declare "You cannot apply a punishment without the infraction," you're missing the fact that the reveal is the infraction. Semantically, that's the same as condition, trigger, etc etc. Nowhere on page 17 does it say anything about handing over your dial because of an execution, attempted or otherwise. You're also wrong at "'treat that maneuver as a white maneuver' gets ignored." First of all, Adrenaline Rush is completely optional. You don't have to use the effect if you don't want to. Second of all, if you do choose to use it, you can use it before or after your opponent changes your dial. The consequences of using it first are obvious. If you use it second, it will treat whatever your opponent selects as white. So if he chooses a green maneuver, you really just screwed yourself. Again, there is no conflict, because you actually can resolve both effects without incident. The rule on page 20 has no bearing on this conversation.

My point was that you cannot stop an action in the middle to determine triggering effects for other actions. The AR card adds to the dial reveal, and evidence by the phrase "when you reveal..." You apparently agree that you must consider any modifying effects when determining if triggering events have occured, except in this case. That seems odd.

Not to mention, that in this case we only have one effect that changes the color of a maneuver, so your point about two is meaningless. Yet for some reason you want to ignore that effect and proceed on. That is the proble we are having with your interpretation.

FFS, I don't know how to make this any more clear to you without drawing a diagram with some Crayola crayons.

No, you're wrong. Nothing has to be "stopped" for a trigger to occur. Adrenaline Rush =/= Gunner. They are not the same, so my logic does not apply to only one instance.

No, that's exactly what you said back on page 3:

"Lawl, WHAT?!? The dial is red... but it isn't red. Listen to yourself.

Here's exactly what the card says: "When you reveal a red maneuver..." OK, that's where you stop. The maneuver is already red. That's all the rule on page 17 needs to trigger. What you treat the maneuver as afterwards no longer matters. You can treat it as being fuchsia if you want, you still revealed a red maneuver."

You are stopping after the dial reveal, and ignoring the part where that dial is modified. I challenge you to find anywhere else in the rules where an effect is triggered without considering any other actions which might modify those conditions. I also challenge you to find an example of the word "when" that does not mean "at the same time as something else" I won't be holding my breath.

I'm not arguing with you anymore. You shot what ever credibility you might have had (and that's a big "might") right in the foot when you tried to convince me that a ship is considered "hit" before your opponent even rolls his defense dice. You can't even get the simple rules right, I fear there's no hope in you comprehending what I'm telling you.

Well, since I didn't say that was how it worked, but rather used it as an example of what you were trying to do in this situation, your credibility in the reading comprehension department seems to be lacking. I never said that was how it worked, in fact, I repeatedly said that was not how it worked. Whatever you need to do to justify yourself, I guess.

My point was that you cannot stop an action in the middle to determine triggering effects for other actions. The AR card adds to the dial reveal, and evidence by the phrase "when you reveal..." You apparently agree that you must consider any modifying effects when determining if triggering events have occured, except in this case. That seems odd.

Not to mention, that in this case we only have one effect that changes the color of a maneuver, so your point about two is meaningless. Yet for some reason you want to ignore that effect and proceed on. That is the proble we are having with your interpretation.

FFS, I don't know how to make this any more clear to you without drawing a diagram with some Crayola crayons.

No, you're wrong. Nothing has to be "stopped" for a trigger to occur. Adrenaline Rush =/= Gunner. They are not the same, so my logic does not apply to only one instance.

No, that's exactly what you said back on page 3:

"Lawl, WHAT?!? The dial is red... but it isn't red. Listen to yourself.

Here's exactly what the card says: "When you reveal a red maneuver..." OK, that's where you stop. The maneuver is already red. That's all the rule on page 17 needs to trigger. What you treat the maneuver as afterwards no longer matters. You can treat it as being fuchsia if you want, you still revealed a red maneuver."

You are stopping after the dial reveal, and ignoring the part where that dial is modified. I challenge you to find anywhere else in the rules where an effect is triggered without considering any other actions which might modify those conditions. I also challenge you to find an example of the word "when" that does not mean "at the same time as something else" I won't be holding my breath.

I'm not arguing with you anymore. You shot what ever credibility you might have had (and that's a big "might") right in the foot when you tried to convince me that a ship is considered "hit" before your opponent even rolls his defense dice. You can't even get the simple rules right, I fear there's no hope in you comprehending what I'm telling you.

Well, since I didn't say that was how it worked, but rather used it as an example of what you were trying to do in this situation, your credibility in the reading comprehension department seems to be lacking. I never said that was how it worked, in fact, I repeatedly said that was not how it worked. Whatever you need to do to justify yourself, I guess.

Look, you want to prove that I'm wrong? The rules regarding whether or not a ship is hit are on page 12. Read the "Modify Defense Dice" step, and then show me where the rules describe an analogous step between "Reveal Dial" and "Set Template" on page 7. I'd like to see you quote that rule for me, since it doesn't exist.

Screw it, here's a diagram. Tell me which one of these is actually in the rules:

A) Roll Dice --> Modify Dice --> Deal Damage (hit)

B) Reveal Maneuver --> Decide Maneuver --> Set Template

I'll give you a hint: it's the first one. By your logic, Adrenaline Rush would have to create a distinct step of its own, one that doesn't actually exist in the game. Seeing as how you can resolve this entire situation without doing that, I'd say your interpretation is wholly invalid. But then I've been saying that all along. And guess what? You'd STILL have revealed a red maneuver!

Thank you Sergovan, for a concise explanation of the problem. There are indeed two possible ways of interpreting the rules. Except when the FAQ has ruled in a fashion in which only one of the two could possibly explain the ruling (Dark Curse + Blaster Turret) I have tried very hard to avoid stating which one is categorically true. On the other hand, it is frustrating when others refuse to acknowledge that there is even another possibility, and speak about people who hold that other opinion as if they were somehow lacking intelligence or insight.

The rules do not have an explicit, definitive explanation of whether they use "phased" timing as you put it or "stepped" timing. Until we have a statement on this matter, we can only guess what conceptual framework they are operating under. It seems to me (opinion, not irrefutable fact) that the "phased" system is the most likely since we have at least two rulings (Dark Curse + Blaster and Biggs + Turrets) that require that method of timing to operate.

But then again, those could be "just because" rulings. We certainly have other rulings (Boost + Proximity Mines for example) that simply do not follow the rules as written regardless of what framework we are operating under.

My point was that you cannot stop an action in the middle to determine triggering effects for other actions. The AR card adds to the dial reveal, and evidence by the phrase "when you reveal..." You apparently agree that you must consider any modifying effects when determining if triggering events have occured, except in this case. That seems odd.

Not to mention, that in this case we only have one effect that changes the color of a maneuver, so your point about two is meaningless. Yet for some reason you want to ignore that effect and proceed on. That is the proble we are having with your interpretation.

FFS, I don't know how to make this any more clear to you without drawing a diagram with some Crayola crayons.

No, you're wrong. Nothing has to be "stopped" for a trigger to occur. Adrenaline Rush =/= Gunner. They are not the same, so my logic does not apply to only one instance.

No, that's exactly what you said back on page 3:

"Lawl, WHAT?!? The dial is red... but it isn't red. Listen to yourself.

Here's exactly what the card says: "When you reveal a red maneuver..." OK, that's where you stop. The maneuver is already red. That's all the rule on page 17 needs to trigger. What you treat the maneuver as afterwards no longer matters. You can treat it as being fuchsia if you want, you still revealed a red maneuver."

You are stopping after the dial reveal, and ignoring the part where that dial is modified. I challenge you to find anywhere else in the rules where an effect is triggered without considering any other actions which might modify those conditions. I also challenge you to find an example of the word "when" that does not mean "at the same time as something else" I won't be holding my breath.

I'm not arguing with you anymore. You shot what ever credibility you might have had (and that's a big "might") right in the foot when you tried to convince me that a ship is considered "hit" before your opponent even rolls his defense dice. You can't even get the simple rules right, I fear there's no hope in you comprehending what I'm telling you.

Well, since I didn't say that was how it worked, but rather used it as an example of what you were trying to do in this situation, your credibility in the reading comprehension department seems to be lacking. I never said that was how it worked, in fact, I repeatedly said that was not how it worked. Whatever you need to do to justify yourself, I guess.

I agree with you that the Gunner example is bad, and I've explained to you TWICE how that has absolutely nothing to do with Adrenaline Rush. Do you even know what a straw man argument is? You seem pretty well acquainted with the execution, if not the concept.

Look, you want to prove that I'm wrong? The rules regarding whether or not a ship is hit are on page 12. Read the "Modify Defense Dice" step, and then show me where the rules describe an analogous step between "Reveal Dial" and "Set Template" on page 7. I'd like to see you quote that rule for me, since it doesn't exist.

Once again, its an analogy to illustrate a point. I am not, nor have I ever said, that this is the way it works. On the contrary, doing it the way I described is completely wrong. It is, however, analogous to what you are doing with the reveal dial step. (Analagous means similar to, not identical to. Someone who understands English so well should have known that.) I'll break it down so you can understand, since you quite obviously haven't yet (as evidfence by your insistence that this is how I think it works).

When making an attack, you first roll the dice. That, in my analogy, equates to revealing the dial.

Now, in an attack, the dice can be modified. In my analogy, that equates to playing the Adrenaline Rush card. It modifies the dial, just like focus tokens modify the attack dice.

The point of my analogy is that in an attack, you cannot stop the procedure after the dice roll to declare that triggering conditions for Gunner have been met. That was all. I was not saying that you could, so your accusations that I did are flat wrong. Similarly, I don't see why you can stop the reveal procedure (which includes playing the Adrenaline Rush card as evidence by the phrase "when you reveal") to declare that the triggering conditions for the page 17 rule have been met.

Most people seem to have understood my analogy quite well. Sorry you had such a hard time with it.

Now, how about an example where you can declare triggering conditions are met before all modifications to those conditions have been met? Or an example in the rules where the word "when" does not mean "at the same time as"? Or are you just going to continue to insist you are right and you know better than anyone else? I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong, but it takes more than misunderstanding what I'm actually saying and accusing me of saying something else to prove it to me.

Sergovan - Regarding page 17: "While a Ship has at least one stress token, it cannot execute red maneuvers or perform any actions (even free actions)" is a different clause from "If a ship already has a stress token assigned to it and it reveals a red maneuver during the activation phase, the opposing player chooses any non-red maneuver on that ship's dial for the ship to execute." Ignore the first part - that is simply a preparatory clause telling you that the maneuver is illegal to begin with. The second clause is "punishing" you for the reveal itself, not the execution, which is a physical impossibility in game terms (your opponent can't choose a red maneuver either).

That's the slippery slope. The reveal is your focus of contention as a timing thing. What I am trying to get you to see is that its a piece of the resolution of that step. When a red maneuver is shown on a dial that is usually a fixed thing. You've revealed it so it is now your maneuver. And that is your reasoning behind the opponent gets to switch it. But, the reveal is not what is being punished, it is the doing a red maneuver while stressed which entails 2 steps- the reveal and the picking up the template to do move. This is that wiblly wobbly bit that goes counter intuition that took me awhile to wrap my head around. Your opinion is that the reveal is one step, and then the template movement is another, when I say it is all combined, and we'll both have our points to show for each.

So, when you declare "You cannot apply a punishment without the infraction," you're missing the fact that the reveal is the infraction. Semantically, that's the same as condition, trigger, etc etc. Nowhere on page 17 does it say anything about handing over your dial because of an execution, attempted or otherwise. You're also wrong at "'treat that maneuver as a white maneuver' gets ignored." First of all, Adrenaline Rush is completely optional. You don't have to use the effect if you don't want to. Second of all, if you do choose to use it, you can use it before or after your opponent changes your dial. The consequences of using it first are obvious. If you use it second, it will treat whatever your opponent selects as white. So if he chooses a green maneuver, you really just screwed yourself. Again, there is no conflict, because you actually can resolve both effects without incident. The rule on page 20 has no bearing on this conversation.

The reveal is not the punishment, it is the trigger to cause the punishment, if you go by a step by step resolution.

The handing over of the dial is for the entire P.17 rule. It says what you can't do in the first paragraph and how it triggers and resolves in the second. You have to abide by both the statement of the rule as well how it resolves, not just the how it resolves.

Treating it like a white maneuver gets violated if you treat it like it is a red maneuver and hand over the dial.

AR is optional because if it did not say "you may" it would apply to the very first red maneuver you did, which would be a wasted card then.

The page 20 rule actually would come into play as the card text must overrule the general rule, in this case the maneuver is white and must be "treated" like it was white, so if you hand over the dial, you've treated it like it is red and it's not.

You have half of rule 17 on your side and step reasoning. I'm arguing the whole of rule 17, and rule 20, with phase reasoning. And that's where I think this will stay till FFG rules on it.

Sergovan - Regarding page 17: "While a Ship has at least one stress token, it cannot execute red maneuvers or perform any actions (even free actions)" is a different clause from "If a ship already has a stress token assigned to it and it reveals a red maneuver during the activation phase, the opposing player chooses any non-red maneuver on that ship's dial for the ship to execute." Ignore the first part - that is simply a preparatory clause telling you that the maneuver is illegal to begin with. The second clause is "punishing" you for the reveal itself, not the execution, which is a physical impossibility in game terms (your opponent can't choose a red maneuver either).

That's the slippery slope. The reveal is your focus of contention as a timing thing. What I am trying to get you to see is that its a piece of the resolution of that step. When a red maneuver is shown on a dial that is usually a fixed thing. You've revealed it so it is now your maneuver. And that is your reasoning behind the opponent gets to switch it. But, the reveal is not what is being punished, it is the doing a red maneuver while stressed which entails 2 steps- the reveal and the picking up the template to do move. This is that wiblly wobbly bit that goes counter intuition that took me awhile to wrap my head around. Your opinion is that the reveal is one step, and then the template movement is another, when I say it is all combined, and we'll both have our points to show for each. So, when you declare "You cannot apply a punishment without the infraction," you're missing the fact that the reveal is the infraction. Semantically, that's the same as condition, trigger, etc etc. Nowhere on page 17 does it say anything about handing over your dial because of an execution, attempted or otherwise. You're also wrong at "'treat that maneuver as a white maneuver' gets ignored." First of all, Adrenaline Rush is completely optional. You don't have to use the effect if you don't want to. Second of all, if you do choose to use it, you can use it before or after your opponent changes your dial. The consequences of using it first are obvious. If you use it second, it will treat whatever your opponent selects as white. So if he chooses a green maneuver, you really just screwed yourself. Again, there is no conflict, because you actually can resolve both effects without incident. The rule on page 20 has no bearing on this conversation.

The reveal is not the punishment, it is the trigger to cause the punishment, if you go by a step by step resolution.

The handing over of the dial is for the entire P.17 rule. It says what you can't do in the first paragraph and how it triggers and resolves in the second. You have to abide by both the statement of the rule as well how it resolves, not just the how it resolves.

Treating it like a white maneuver gets violated if you treat it like it is a red maneuver and hand over the dial.

AR is optional because if it did not say "you may" it would apply to the very first red maneuver you did, which would be a wasted card then.

The page 20 rule actually would come into play as the card text must overrule the general rule, in this case the maneuver is white and must be "treated" like it was white, so if you hand over the dial, you've treated it like it is red and it's not.

You have half of rule 17 on your side and step reasoning. I'm arguing the whole of rule 17, and rule 20, with phase reasoning. And that's where I think this will stay till FFG rules on it.

Wow. You even quoted the rules, how are you not getting this? The rules say nothing about handing over the dial because of an execution or touching the template. That is 100% made up by you. I'm focused on the word reveal because that's the exact word the rule uses!