Right but the Card happens during the "When you reveal a Red Maneuver" phase, the phase doesn't end until the card is resolved, therefor during the "When you reveal a Red Maneuver" phase the counter is both red and white, it's indeterminant. Which is why you break it down into events and do each event in order.

I'd rather not repeat myself (again), so please go back and re-read what I said about the reveal and the card happening simultaneously. It's a physical impossibility.

Right but the Card happens during the "When you reveal a Red Maneuver" phase, the phase doesn't end until the card is resolved, therefor during the "When you reveal a Red Maneuver" phase the counter is both red and white, it's indeterminant. Which is why you break it down into events and do each event in order.

I'd rather not repeat myself (again), so please go back and re-read what I said about the reveal and the card happening simultaneously. It's a physical impossibility.

Which is why the Rules specifically say when you get a situation where 2 things happen at the same time the Player control the model chooses. This is just the kind of situation that rule is there to define.

Or are you saying it's impossible to play a card when revealing a dial.. Because until the dial is revealed it is also impossible to know it's red, you can't know it while your revealing. I think your reading the reveal the dial as a distinct event. Where it's not, it's a timing stop where things can happen. Both the check and the card are things that can happen in this timing stop.

So I guess I have to repeat myself after all. The only choice the player has is if he wants Adrenaline Rush to resolve before or after he hands over his dial. Those are the two simultaneous actions.

Yes, revealing the dial is absolutely a distinct event. The reveal and Adrenaline Rush's trigger are NOT simultaneous. Something that is in the process of revelation is not, by definition, already revealed. Because Adrenaline Rush has a conditional clause, it cannot trigger until AFTER a maneuver has been revealed. You're letting a simple semantic distinction ("when") royally mess you up.

u guys are over thinking it.

So I guess I have to repeat myself after all. The only choice the player has is if he wants Adrenaline Rush to trigger before or after he hands over his dial. Those are the two simultaneous actions.

The reveal and Adrenaline Rush's trigger are NOT simultaneous. Something that is in the process of revelation is not, by definition, already revealed. Because Adrenaline Rush has a conditional clause, it cannot trigger until AFTER a maneuver has been revealed. You're letting a simple semantic distinction ("when") royally mess you up.

Why do you think the check happens simultaneously? Both the Card and the Check use the exact same phrase for when they happen. What makes the Check follow one set of timing rules and the Card use another set of timing rules.

And Rules are all about semantics. That is how they function. Your letting a gut feeling, that because you know that it's a red maneuver a check has been done. The game doesn't know it's a red maneuver until it checks it. That's how game design works, without timing rules everything falls down. You can't just let a gut feeling be your reason for arguing that something comes first.

Wow. Do not get condescending with me, I can promise you that I know far and away more about both semantics and game rules than you do. This is not a gut feeling, this is sheer interpretational ability. If you can't read the rules as clearly as I can, that's on you.

Wow. Do not get condescending with me, I can promise you that I know far and away more about both semantics and game rules than you do. This is not a gut feeling, this is sheer interpretational ability. If you can't read the rules as clearly as I can, that's on you.

How can you know that? How do you know I'm not a game designer by trade and haven't studied Semantics at University.

But what you've failed to give me in two pages is a reason why the timing on the card and the counter should be treated in different ways. Without a reason, all you have is well "because", that is the definition of a gut feeling.

Honestly? You want me to just say it? I hate flaming people, but the reason I know that is because what you're saying is both outright stupid and wrong. I tried to be polite with you for as long as possible, but you can't pee on my head and tell me it's raining. I've been at this for far too long not to know any better.

"But what you've failed to give me in two pages is a reason why the timing on the card and the counter should be treated in different ways. Without a reason, all you have is well "because", that is the definition of a gut feeling" - If that's what you think I've been saying all along, despite my very carefully chosen words to the contrary, then you're an imbecile. Maybe you should try taking a simple reading comprehension course at your semantic university.

It's late, and I need sleep. Have a good night.

Honestly? You want me to just say it? I hate flaming people, but the reason I know that is because what you're saying is both outright stupid and wrong. I tried to be polite with you for as long as possible, but you can't pee on my head and tell me it's raining. I've been at this for far too long not to know any better.

It's late, and I need sleep. Have a good night.

And that's also where I sign off. I've broken down the reasons that I believe that Adrenal Rush does work. I didn't need to use "well it just knows what happened earlier in the game" to prove my point. I didn't need to read a timing step and apply it differently to 2 events. I also didn't need to break down an event into two parts that happen at different times just to make things work.

It needs an FAQ, but as far as I'm concerned after checking all the relevant rules there is only one way everything can break down. If you could give a logical reason why you can treat the card and the check in totally different ways, then I would be willing to change my view. However you haven't.

Honestly? You want me to just say it? I hate flaming people, but the reason I know that is because what you're saying is both outright stupid and wrong. I tried to be polite with you for as long as possible, but you can't pee on my head and tell me it's raining. I've been at this for far too long not to know any better.

Dude...you've been a jerk this whole time to anyone who disagrees with you. You don't hate flaming people, and you haven't been very polite. You have been condescending regularly and I haven't appreciated any of your posts. I even agree with your interpretation of the rules, but the way you present it makes you look like a ******. Respect people's opinions. You can't lose anything by it.

I would like to shed some light onto the intention of the rules text on page 20:

"If a ship already has a stress token assigned to it
and it reveals a red maneuver during the Activation
phase, the opposing player chooses any non-red
maneuver on that ship’s dial for the ship to execute."

As I see it, this i text above is just a neat way to resolve the issue of conflict resulting from the following text (also on page 20):

"While a ship has at least
one stress token, it cannot execute red
maneuvers..."

The intention here is:

If "..it cannot execute red [the revealed] maneuver..." "...the opposing player chooses any non-red [executable]
maneuver on that ship’s dial for the ship to execute..."

So if you ask me, revealing a red maneuver while stressed and triggering AR result in no intended conflict.

We can argue about rules interpretation all day (obviously) but the quoted texts above makes me a firm believer of the intention behind Adrenaline Rush. (And I'll gladly admit that this is just a speculation untill we have an official ruling on the matter.)

Rulebook, page 13, last paragraph on the page.

"Remember that what is most important when playing a game of X-Wing is having fun!"

That is all.

Given that the way FFG rulings have gone in the past, I think that they'll go for the option that gives the card the most utility (for example, prox mines are triggered by boosts and barrel rolls even though they're not maneuvers. This means that prox. mines become more useful).

Given that adrenaline rush is a 1-shot EPT, I'd wager that when the next FAQ is release we'll find that you can adrenaline rush can be used when you already have a stress token without penalty. I could be wrong of course, we'll just have to wait and see unless someone at Gencon can ask the designers for us...

After a time lurking, I finally decided to post on the forums, so hello everyone.

Now regading the topic, and the specific question on debate

From my understanding, if your opponent gets to change your dial when you reveal a red maneuver AND using 'Adrenaline Rush' to treat it as a white maneuver, an inherent contradiction on the rules is being produced.

Mostly because one player treats the maneuver as a white maneuver (The user don't get stress), but the other is treating it as a red maneuver (he's changing the dial). From a logical standpoint, both players should give a cause the same effects.

Futhermore, if both players treat it as a white maneuver, there will be no conflict and no rules contradictions. But if an opponent changes your dial because you revealed a 'red maneuver' stressed, at the end, he is explicitly contradicting the text on the card that says 'treat it as a white maneuver'.

So it's either:

A) When you are stressed and declare a red maneuver using 'adrenaline rush', both players must treat it as a white maneuver... So, no dial changing. 'Adrenaline rush' thus prevents the 'illegal activation' rule from pg.17 from taking effect since it 'converts' the red maneuver to a white (and legal) maneuver for all effects.

or

B) You cannot play adrenaline rush if you reveal a red maneuver while stressed. The 'punishment' from page 17 takes precedence and both players must treat it as an illegally revealed red maneuver.

Given the purpose and functionality of the card I bet (A) is the real intent, but as always, official confirmation will settle it.

Honestly? You want me to just say it? I hate flaming people, but the reason I know that is because what you're saying is both outright stupid and wrong. I tried to be polite with you for as long as possible, but you can't pee on my head and tell me it's raining. I've been at this for far too long not to know any better.

Dude...you've been a jerk this whole time to anyone who disagrees with you. You don't hate flaming people, and you haven't been very polite. You have been condescending regularly and I haven't appreciated any of your posts. I even agree with your interpretation of the rules, but the way you present it makes you look like a ******. Respect people's opinions. You can't lose anything by it.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Wow. Do not get condescending with me, I can promise you that I know far and away more about both semantics and game rules than you do. This is not a gut feeling, this is sheer interpretational ability. If you can't read the rules as clearly as I can, that's on you.

I believe the individual said you and they have never met. Isn't this a rather presumptuous statement at best and arrogant at least on your part?

See point 1 of the original post.

Honestly? You want me to just say it? I hate flaming people, but the reason I know that is because what you're saying is both outright stupid and wrong.

Stupid? If you feel this comment is actually being productive then perhaps you need to rethink who is making foolish posts.

See point 1 of the original post

I'd rather not repeat myself (again), so please go back and re-read what I said about the reveal and the card happening simultaneously. It's a physical impossibility.

Then please don't, see point 2 of the original post.

So I guess I have to repeat myself after all.

Actually you do not have to repeat yourself. It is a choice, one of many we all make. Just like we can choose to be polite or rude.

People are allowed to have other opinions.

You seem familiar with the game yet this account was only recently set up, 11 August. If I may be so presumptuous as to ask do you have another account that you have also used to post on this forum?

You can be as presumptuous as you like, I'm not sure how that's relevant.

We can hem and haw all we want. It's GenCon right now. The FFG guys are all busy now. They will probably be recovering a good bit of next week. It's not like there are many AR cards in circulation for a while. We can see about getting some clarification in a couple weeks after they get back and get recovered.

[Edited] I started this post but I'm removing myself from it as there is nothing to be gained.

No, I'm not that low.

wow, if you need to insult someone over how to play with your little plastic toys, maybe its time to step away for a bit

wow, if you need to insult someone over how to play with your little plastic toys, maybe its time to step away for a bit

If you're talking to me, I don't insult people. I just make observations.