WonderWAAAGH: You are only assuming the rules support the second option over the first. There is no rule written either way, there are no real precedents, and whether or not I agree with you about which I way I believe it should go I wouldn't have much to stand on if someone were to argue the other way.

Just like you are. I cannot prove you "wrong" because there are no rules that do so. Neither can you prove you are "right" because the rules simply don't exist.

On our MtG equivalent, let us consider your example. Do you remember Thoughtlace? This was an interrupt (now called an instant) that let you change the color of a spell to blue as it was being played. If in your example you had cast a green creature spell but I had used Thoughtlace to alter it to blue as it was being played , your trigger would not go off. You would be considered to have cast a blue creature, not a green, regardless of what color the card was "when you cast it". Just like my first example allows Adrenaline Rush to alter the maneuver before the red/stress trigger activates, Thoughtlace would alter your green spell before the "cast green creature" trigger had a chance to activate.

The question for X-Wing then is whether or not the change from Adrenaline Rush operates like Thoughtlace does (changing the color as it was played) or if it works as a spell would that only alters permanents.

Lets cross our fingers for an FAQ.

You are *this* close to picking up what I'm putting down.

Your Thoughtlace example would be the equivalent of what I'm now posting for the third time: "treat the maneuver as if you had revealed a white maneuver." That effect would replace the maneuver before it gets resolved, which in this instance is the dial itself getting flipped. So, for your Thoughtlace example to work, it has to change the maneuver before it's revealed - which would be the equivalent of changing a spell's color before it resolves. Adrenaline Rush doesn't do that.

Again, just so that we're clear: the rule effect triggers when you flip over your dial and reveal a red maneuver. Unless something changes it before or during the flip, your opponent is going to be able to do with it as he sees fit. Adrenaline Rush does not change it until after it has been revealed.

The card text says:

Reading page 17 and then looking at the card text I am inclined to believe that, by the rules, a stressed pilot executes a red (turned to white) maneuver but his opponent gets to choose his maneuver. I think that the intent, however, was to not have the dial changing rule come into play.

FFG did not use correct phrasing...again. sigh...

@ Sergovan: Agreed. Which I why I *think* we should play it that the opponent does not alter the dial. Not because of a rigorous rule interpretation but just an impression I get.

@ WonderWAAAGH: Not really. You cannot alter something that is not "in play". Thoughtlace is cast once your opponent "reveals" his spell by tapping, paying costs, and casting his green creature. You don't play Thoughtlace while the card is still in your opponent's hand. Similarly, you don't play adrenaline rush before you flip over the dial. Notably, the concept of "interrupts" was abandoned in MtG for reasons similar to this one.

"Treat the maneuver as if you had revealed a white maneuver" is NOT the same thing as "change the revealed maneuver to a white maneuver". Or, in this case:

"When you reveal a red maneuver, you may discard this card to treat that maneuver as a white maneuver until the end of the activation phase".

You are most definitely changing the revealed maneuver before it resolves, nobody has moved anything yet. On the other hand, we JUST DON'T KNOW how this works. There is no explanation of what part of the actions are resolved immediately or not. In fact, the entire game seems to rely an awful lot on simultaneous effects. If that is the case here, then Adrenaline Rush would not protect you from having your dial altered but again it just isn't there in the rules at all.

I will stop now (much earlier than other times I have gotten into timing debates, thankfully) since I really don't know how the rule should be interpreted. I DO know that rules for resolving this are non-existent until a FAQ clears it up for us.

I can see the intent being to simply prevent you from receiving a stress token, and nothing more. I mean, it is only 1 point. And from a flavor perspective, Adrenaline Rush, to me, signifies the senses being enhanced to a degree that would allow a pilot to more easily execute a dangerous maneuver with no adverse effects. To do that when you're already stressed would require a different effect on the central nervous system - something calming instead.

It seems to me, reading the way the card is worded (i.e. "WHEN you reveal...") that the dial revelation and the playing of Adrenaline Rush happen at the same time, so there is effectively no point where the maneuver is considered to be red.

@ Sergovan: Agreed. Which I why I *think* we should play it that the opponent does not alter the dial. Not because of a rigorous rule interpretation but just an impression I get.

@ WonderWAAAGH: Not really. You cannot alter something that is not "in play". Thoughtlace is cast once your opponent "reveals" his spell by tapping, paying costs, and casting his green creature. You don't play Thoughtlace while the card is still in your opponent's hand. Similarly, you don't play adrenaline rush before you flip over the dial. Notably, the concept of "interrupts" was abandoned in MtG for reasons similar to this one.

"Treat the maneuver as if you had revealed a white maneuver" is NOT the same thing as "change the revealed maneuver to a white maneuver". Or, in this case:

"When you reveal a red maneuver, you may discard this card to treat that maneuver as a white maneuver until the end of the activation phase".

You are most definitely changing the revealed maneuver before it resolves, nobody has moved anything yet. On the other hand, we JUST DON'T KNOW how this works. There is no explanation of what part of the actions are resolved immediately or not. In fact, the entire game seems to rely an awful lot on simultaneous effects. If that is the case here, then Adrenaline Rush would not protect you from having your dial altered but again it just isn't there in the rules at all.

I will stop now (much earlier than other times I have gotten into timing debates, thankfully) since I really don't know how the rule should be interpreted. I DO know that rules for resolving this are non-existent until a FAQ clears it up for us.

It seems to me, reading the way the card is worded (i.e. "WHEN you reveal...") that the dial revelation and the playing of Adrenaline Rush happen at the same time, so there is effectively no point where the maneuver is considered to be red.

The card has to check to see if a red maneuver was revealed before you can use its ability, which means that it IS red at a certain point - otherwise you couldn't use it. And because the rules only care about what was revealed, and not what maneuver is going to actually be executed, your opponent is going to be able to do what he wants with your dial.

That's not what "When you reveal a red maneuver, you may discard this card to treat that maneuver as a white maneuver" says to me. The word "When" seems to indicate something that occurs at the same time. "When" means the time that something happens, not later.

The card isn't checking anything. The person flipping the dial plays the card at the same time. The two events happen at the same time. I don't see any other way to interpret this.

Right. You know what else is checking to see if a red maneuver is being revealed? The rule on page 17. There's no getting around that. Your opponent gets to choose your maneuver, whether it happens before or after you change it to a white one.

And yes, the card HAS to check to see if it's red. There is a very clear condition that must be met before you can use it, so It cannot spontaneously execute of its own volition.

I'll make this even simpler for everyone: flip the dial, reveal the maneuver, and then use Adrenaline Rush if you really want to. Then ask yourself one simple question: did I reveal a red maneuver? If you answer "yes," you must abide by the rule on page 17.

Except for the rule on page 20, which says if card text conflicts with general rules, the card text overrides the general rules.

Here we have a conflict between the rule defining what happens when you reveal a red maneuver with a stress token, and the card that says you can do something else. By page 20, the card would take precedence and you would treat the maneuver as white.

But there is no conflict. A conflict occurs when you can only do one or the other, in which case the card supersedes everything else. Here you do both, seperate from each other and in whatever order you choose.

There is a conflict. One where the maneuver is considered red, and one where it is considered white. The card's wording says the reveal and the card's result are simultaneous (use of the word "when"). Thus the maneuver is considered white from the point of the reveal. Therefore the opponent does not get to choose a new maneuver because there is no actual point where the maneuver is considered red.

I concede that it is possible it works the way you say, but I don't think that is what was intended based on the way the card is worded. If it worked your way, it should have said "after the maneuver is revealed" and not "when".

Lol. This is so very similar to another discussion I had with Buhallin it is eery. The bright side is that this discussion has caused me to reread the rules carefully, and apply some vigorous thought to the matter and I believe there is an answer. Not a terribly satisfying one (nor does it actually answer the question at hand), and certainly it would be better to have an FAQ to settle the issue, but there is something.

The issue you are having is that you are adding verbage where there is none. You say, "flip the dial, reveal the maneuver, and then use Adrenaline Rush.." The card does not say flip, reveal AND THEN use the card. There is no sequence of play written or implied. The wording is "When you reveal the maneuver you may discard ..." Grammatically this means that the two things occur at the same time, not in sequence. I wouldn't say "use your toothbrush AND THEN brush your teeth", I would say "use your toothbrush WHEN you brush your teeth".

You also have the rule that states "When you reveal the maneuver..." Grammatically, this is ALSO occurring at the exact same time. Since the two effects conflict in a manner that requires sequencing to make sense, the rule allowing the acting player to choose the order of their resolution comes into play.

I played on the MtG pro-tour for years, and I really believe that too many people here are so accustomed to "the stack" and MtG's system of timing that they are unable to envision another method of resolution. I have the advantage of having played MtG BEFORE the "stack" was introduced, when "interrupts" were still part of the game and could alter a spell as it was cast, before it was placed on the "stack" (though it wasn't called the stack at the time).

Unfortunately, you guys are arguing the wrong question. What order things occur in is pretty cut and dried. Both effects (Adrenaline Rush and the red/stress check) occur at the same time, so they may be resolved in whatever order the active player wishes. This is extremely clear from the rules. The question is WHAT the player is doing. There are 2 effects, are they worded this way:

1 - Check if the maneuver is red, if so treat it as white.

2 - Check if the maneuver is red, if so the opponent selects a legal maneuver.

Or do the two triggers (both of which depend on a revealed red maneuver) both go off simultaneously without intervention or input by the active player, handing him two actions to resolve in whatever order that look like this:

1 - Treat the maneuver as if it were white.

2 - Your opponent selects a legal maneuver.

In other words, does the active player control when checks and their effects occur, or do the checks go off on their own and he only controls the order the effects occur.

As I said, there is no guidance from the rules on this point so we are at a bit of an impasse. The timing of the actions is actually pretty clear, WHAT those actions consist of is not.

Also: Note I completely failed to shut up. lol

Can you use Adrenaline Rush if the maneuver isn't red? No. Ergo, the maneuver must first be red before you can use Adrenaline Rush.

Did you reveal a red maneuver? Yes. Ergo, you must abide by the rule on page 17.

You can change it to a white maneuver if you really want, but your opponent is still going to get a crack at your dial. There is no conflict. None. I don't know how to make that any more clear.

Lol. This is so very similar to another discussion I had with Buhallin it is eery. The bright side is that this discussion has caused me to reread the rules carefully, and apply some vigorous thought to the matter and I believe there is an answer. Not a terribly satisfying one (nor does it actually answer the question at hand), and certainly it would be better to have an FAQ to settle the issue, but there is something.

The issue you are having is that you are adding verbage where there is none. You say, "flip the dial, reveal the maneuver, and then use Adrenaline Rush.." The card does not say flip, reveal AND THEN use the card. There is no sequence of play written or implied. The wording is "When you reveal the maneuver you may discard ..." Grammatically this means that the two things occur at the same time, not in sequence. I wouldn't say "use your toothbrush AND THEN brush your teeth", I would say "use your toothbrush WHEN you brush your teeth".

You also have the rule that states "When you reveal the maneuver..." Grammatically, this is ALSO occurring at the exact same time. Since the two effects conflict in a manner that requires sequencing to make sense, the rule allowing the acting player to choose the order of their resolution comes into play.

I played on the MtG pro-tour for years, and I really believe that too many people here are so accustomed to "the stack" and MtG's system of timing that they are unable to envision another method of resolution. I have the advantage of having played MtG BEFORE the "stack" was introduced, when "interrupts" were still part of the game and could alter a spell as it was cast, before it was placed on the "stack" (though it wasn't called the stack at the time).

Unfortunately, you guys are arguing the wrong question. What order things occur in is pretty cut and dried. Both effects (Adrenaline Rush and the red/stress check) occur at the same time, so they may be resolved in whatever order the active player wishes. This is extremely clear from the rules. The question is WHAT the player is doing. There are 2 effects, are they worded this way:

1 - Check if the maneuver is red, if so treat it as white.

2 - Check if the maneuver is red, if so the opponent selects a legal maneuver.

Or do the two triggers (both of which depend on a revealed red maneuver) both go off simultaneously without intervention or input by the active player, handing him two actions to resolve in whatever order that look like this:

1 - Treat the maneuver as if it were white.

2 - Your opponent selects a legal maneuver.

In other words, does the active player control when checks and their effects occur, or do the checks go off on their own and he only controls the order the effects occur.

As I said, there is no guidance from the rules on this point so we are at a bit of an impasse. The timing of the actions is actually pretty clear, WHAT those actions consist of is not.

Also: Note I completely failed to shut up. lol

And for the umpteenth time, the rule only cares about what was revealed, not "check if the maneuver is red." It is not checking to see what the current status of the dial is, because it already triggered when a red maneuver was revealed. The only question that remains is what order the player wants them to resolve in.

Also: I've been playing since Fallen Empires.

Of course there is a way of knowing what color the maneuver is before its revealed. Its the same player revealing the dial as it is playing the card. He knows what color the maneuver is before its revealed. If it isn't red, he wouldn't be using the card.

And if he uses the card, the maneuver is treated as being white, not red. So it no longer matters what the color on the dial is, because the card says it is treated as white. Again, the card is worded to say that the two events (the reveal and the card being played) happen at the same time. The rule on page 17 does not say "WHEN it reveals a red maneuver", it says "IF it reveals a red maneuver". "If" does not mean the same thing as "when". That's the reason I'm disagreeing with you. I don't believe these two results are simultaneous. It seems clear to me that the card takes place at the same time as the reveal, and the opponent getting to choose happens after the reveal. But if the card is played, the maneuver is considered to be white from the point of the reveal and the opponent no longer gets to choose a maneuver because of the card text overriding the general rule.

Of course there is a way of knowing what color the maneuver is before its revealed. Its the same player revealing the dial as it is playing the card. He knows what color the maneuver is before its revealed. If it isn't red, he wouldn't be using the card.

And if he uses the card, the maneuver is treated as being white, not red. So it no longer matters what the color on the dial is, because the card says it is treated as white. Again, the card is worded to say that the two events (the reveal and the card being played) happen at the same time. The rule on page 17 does not say "WHEN it reveals a red maneuver", it says "IF it reveals a red maneuver". "If" does not mean the same thing as "when". That's the reason I'm disagreeing with you. I don't believe these two results are simultaneous. It seems clear to me that the card takes place at the same time as the reveal, and the opponent getting to choose happens after the reveal. But if the card is played, the maneuver is considered to be white from the point of the reveal and the opponent no longer gets to choose a maneuver because of the card text overriding the general rule.

YOU don't need to know whether the dial is red or not, the card does. Are you just trolling me now? You have to be trolling me. There's no way anybody could be this obtuse.

This. Is. SIMPLE. The dial is either revealed, or it is not revealed. There is no in between. You CANNOT use Adrenaline Rush unless the maneuver is red in the first place. Adrenaline Rush is not psychic, and does not know what the maneuver is until it is revealed. Adrenaline Rush does not retroactively change what was revealed.

The card is a card. It doesn't know anything. It has certain effects that take place under certain circumstances. We seem to be disagreeing on when those circumstances arise. You seem to be saying that the page 17 rule is going to kick in no matter what and at the same time as the dial is revealed. I'm saying that in my opinion, the wording doesn't support that interpretation. I could certainly be wrong.

The way I read the card, you play it at the same time you reveal the dial. The maneuver is considered white from the get-go. There is never any point where it is considered red, because the card takes effect at the same time, as indicated by the word "when". So the opponent never gets to choose a new maneuver, because you effectively did not reveal a red maneuver. The only way your interpretation would work is if the rule on page 17 could ignore the effects of the card, which I don't see being supported anywhere.

Do you agree that the card takes effect at the same time the dial is revealed?

"If a ship already has a stress token assigned to it

and it reveals a red maneuver during the Activation

phase, the opposing player chooses any non-red

maneuver on that ship’s dial for the ship to execute."

The rule is going to kick in no matter what, IF you reveal a red maneuver. Since you cannot activate Adrenaline Rush unless you reveal a red maneuver, there is no avoiding the rule on page 17. The fact that you can treat it as a white maneuver "for the REST of the phase" (i.e. after) is immaterial.

Let's try this again: you reveal the red maneuver. Adrenaline Rush says "you MAY discard..." etc etc. You sit there and ponder over whether you want to use it or not. While you're pondering, you look down and see that it is, in fact, a red maneuver sitting atop the table. You keep pondering, presumably for the rest of your life. Now please answer this question, using either yes or no: did you reveal a red maneuver?

But you activate it WHEN you reveal the maneuver. There is no point in the Activation phase that the maneuver is considered to be red.

Again, page 20. Card text overrides general rule.

Holy cr@p dude. If it's never considered red, YOU CAN'T USE ADRENALINE RUSH.

Its not considered red because you use the card. It is still red on the dial, the card means it isn't treated as a red maneuver during the Activation Phase. That's exactly what the card says, it isn't TREATED as a red maneuver from the Reveal Dial step through the Perform Action step. Since it takes effect at the same time as the dial is revealed, it is treated as a white maneuver from that point.

This is just going to go round in circles. I think, as the rules are written, that you can't use Adrenal Rush for a second red action.. However this may not be the RAI. It does feel that the card was designed to do just this, but the wording is a bit wonky.