Hi all.

I have yet to experience an EotE game, but I found the dice mechanic interesting.

Sometimes you have to play a system a while before you really get a feel for how viable a system is. Sometimes, you read something that alters your expectations a bit.

I usually frequent the Paizo site since I support their products. This review for the Beginner Game showed up on there:

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ut3?Star-Wars-RPG-Edge-of-the-Empire-Beginner-Game

Do any of you feel the same way about the dice system boost/setback mechanic? Have you experienced player disagreement with how the GM modifies a dice pool before it is rolled?

I sort of compare the boost and setback dice of EotE with the typical +2/-2 bonuses/penalties that happen with favorable/unfavorable situations in d20 systems, and I imagine similar situations in EotE should be fairly easy to make the same kinds of judgments about.

What do you think? Thanks for your insight!

I sort of compare the boost and setback dice of EotE with the typical +2/-2 bonuses/penalties that happen with favorable/unfavorable situations in d20 systems, and I imagine similar situations in EotE should be fairly easy to make the same kinds of judgments about.

That is how I use them, no problems yet. Main difference is though is penalties and boosts this way can stack (not really a difference I guess since they are coming from different sources or just represnting bigger mod ie +5/-5).

Most if not all systems use modifiers of one sort or another. To start making out like this system is more complicated than another is funny to me. While Star Wars uses proprietary dice, the principals are similar to a d20 or 2d6 or d10 or other system. You have the dice you roll to complete the action, the target you roll against, and the modifiers. In this case though, rather than some being just numbers (target, modifiers), they are all dice that give you yoir result. I also think his review misses out one big factor, the fact that results go beyond pass/fail. The fact that the dice allow for some narrative control is a huge attraction, I think. Oh well, it won't appeal to everyone.

≤SNIDE≥The guy writing that review obviously is mentally deficient. If he can't handle that little bit of math, I'd be surprised if he's able to read his own dice in d20....≤/SNIDE≥

The system plays well, fast, and loose. I wish that an expansion dice pack with 6 each black and blue, a red and a white, were available, but in truth, the dice mechanics are not hard to learn, players were assembling pools without issue by the end of session 2.

I wouldn't put them equivalent to ±1 or ±2; I'd say closer to ±3...

That was a horrible review.

To each his own but..

I look at setback dice at an opportunity for a GM to be descriptive with effect. So, instead of saying to the players "its raining really hard and makes it harder to see your target" for no reason but to be narrative, you can say it and hand the player a setback die at the same time. Its a good tool to encourage the GM to give more details to the players surroundings and in turn bring alittle tension (immersion) to the situation.

You have goggles on, eh? Honestly, all of those things that he said to counter the setback dice would require a Destiny Point, or prior preparedness on the part of the player. How would you have those programs? Where did you get those goggles and how much did they cost? Seems like this guy is just an ass to me. XD

I LOVE the speed and simplicity (and lack of table calculation) of the boost and setback dice. It's one of the best ideas in rpgs, for my money.

To add some to the discussion. The dice and slander the the review some more.

The review is correct that any system can do what SW does. The entire point of the dice was to address human behaviour.

* the dice don't guarantee anything. Especially Setback dice. Let me explain

In D&D and any linear numeric modifier. A Bonus and Setback influence the odds equal. Heavy Rain is a -2, is always the same the rain always represents the flat value of -2. The player understands the result of this and it's influence on the result of the roll.

Where as a SW Setback Dice doesn't not represent any solid value. It has 6 sides. 2 no result, 2 fail, 2 Threat. That means the results influence may have no effect. in narrative it means the the PC overcame the heavy rain with little trouble. the rain slowed him down or halted progress, or possibly the heavy rain cause the handholds above to crumble making the next roll more difficult.

once this mind set set's in that a Setback die has a very direct influence of a narrative value of outcome. It change the players behavour a lot. Players become more invested trying to give SB dice to enemies, Players become invested trying to make up ways why they get a Boost die.

*Boost Dice are superior to Setback dice

There more result values on a Boost die that a SB die. This means that 1SB is worth less than the benefit of 1 Boost. The purpose of this is to drive the Player to create situations, get situations, describe benefits so they can get a Boost die.

The Dice system in FFG SW is an encouraging game mechanic for players and even more fun for the GM.

Where as what the reviewer is saying is that what and how games should be played is a very arbitrary model where the GM does everything. Yes SW Dice adds a litte more time to the play, but the quickness of the system and the fact that the larger dice pools makes the rules more engaging due to the addition of Threat/Advantage and Triumph/Despair and vectors to the result that make the game far more deep. SW dice just isn't the vector of Failure and Margin of Success, but external benefits and disadvantages along with fortune and catastrophes. All in one roll. that's right. that is all achieved in a single roll. on the opposite side in standard linear systems anything more than pass/fail requires more rolls or more situation thinking. Can be done, but the more inspiration the better.

I usually frequent the Paizo site since I support their products. This review for the Beginner Game showed up on there:

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ut3?Star-Wars-RPG-Edge-of-the-Empire-Beginner-Game

Do any of you feel the same way about the dice system boost/setback mechanic? Have you experienced player disagreement with how the GM modifies a dice pool before it is rolled?

I disagree. While the dice system for EotE does seem unusual at first, and is probably a little more complicated than low-level Pathfinder games, it doesn't seem to become much more cumbersome as play progresses. Pathfinder, on the other hand, becomes really complicated at high levels. We just hit level 17 in my home campaign, and the number of factors that come into play for every attack roll--with modifiers for spells, feats, circumstances, magical items, etc.--makes for a lot more math. To me, adding and taking away boost and/or setback dice seems a good deal simpler.

-Nate

I usually frequent the Paizo site since I support their products. This review for the Beginner Game showed up on there:

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ut3?Star-Wars-RPG-Edge-of-the-Empire-Beginner-Game

Do any of you feel the same way about the dice system boost/setback mechanic? Have you experienced player disagreement with how the GM modifies a dice pool before it is rolled?

I disagree. While the dice system for EotE does seem unusual at first, and is probably a little more complicated than low-level Pathfinder games, it doesn't seem to become much more cumbersome as play progresses. Pathfinder, on the other hand, becomes really complicated at high levels. We just hit level 17 in my home campaign, and the number of factors that come into play for every attack roll--with modifiers for spells, feats, circumstances, magical items, etc.--makes for a lot more math. To me, adding and taking away boost and/or setback dice seems a good deal simpler.

-Nate

Agreed. It simplifies the math greatly. Set the difficulty, add boost and setback and roll. No need to do any math until you start counting successes, and subtracting failures and/or soak.

I love this system. Collating the results is a little complicated (noting all the failures vs successes and threat vs advantage), but once you get started with the rolls you can usually spot pretty easily atleast a pass or fail...with some extra counting to determine the exact results.

Well anyone that feels the need to state things like:

- First let me say I've been playing all sorts of rpg's since 1980

- I usually really like arthouse movies and have seen all of David Lynch's movies

- Normally I am all for experimental music

- I have been to Asia over 20 times

usually doesn't get his review read by me. If someone feels a need to establish some kind of seniority before he starts a write he usually is doing this because of insecurity or because he actually isn't all that senior at all.

But this time I did read it all the way through and I suspect (very strongly) that he has not played the game and has only read the booklet(s.) For one he doesn't refer to anything specific that happened in play and secondly he states that "determining how many dice and what type to use for even the simplest of tasks is overly cumbersome" which is simply not true.

His one anecdote really seems a fabrication to me.

I could be wrong of course, but I don't think the chances are big I am.

Personally, my gaming experiences encompass everything from Caosium to Savage Worlds, to BESM and World of Darkness. Given those experiences I tend to prefer a much more narrative much less tactical style of play. There are pros and cons with both types of systems, but ultimately it depends on what your preference is as a player/GM.

No system is ever going to be universal in its appeal. However, I do feel that the referenced posting is suspect at best. There is no real fact checking on the internet. I would suggest going to boardgamegeek and looking at their reviews. They have an interesting system for rating various aspects of a game which I find helpful.

As for arbitraty, well what isn't? D&D/Pathfinder can be just as difficult in relations to its algebra, and just a fickle in regards to it's assignments of numbers. For gamers who enjoy having a system that favors rules over rulings it is a great system.

Our group thus far has very much enjoyed the games we've been playing. My personal favorite about this system is the dice. It allows any given action an an amazing ammount of flexibility in result instead of being largely pass/fail that numerically based systems tend to be. It's also not anywhere near as complicated as that poster would have you believe.

As with all things, I would say to give it a try. Find out if your FLGS is offering a demo and/or if the group is intereste, chip in a couple of bucks for the beginner set and play the game. Don't take mine or anyone elses word on what you would enjoy.

≤SNIDE≥The guy writing that review obviously is mentally deficient. If he can't handle that little bit of math, I'd be surprised if he's able to read his own dice in d20....≤/SNIDE≥

The system plays well, fast, and loose. I wish that an expansion dice pack with 6 each black and blue, a red and a white, were available, but in truth, the dice mechanics are not hard to learn, players were assembling pools without issue by the end of session 2.

I wouldn't put them equivalent to ±1 or ±2; I'd say closer to ±3...

Our GM's wife (first time dice mechanic player) was able to build a dice pool after one session. I'd use that as evidence that there is nothing challenging about the pools here. I'd like to see some expansion dice packs too.

I LOVE the speed and simplicity (and lack of table calculation) of the boost and setback dice. It's one of the best ideas in rpgs, for my money.

This was a big point of awesome for me too. It's simple, fast, and easy to work with.

There's a big market for Star Wars, but if you start throwing math at people a lot will walk away. The dice in EotE is a good way to bring potential players in without scaring them off with a bunch of calculations.

My 7 year old can build his own dice pools after only a couple short sessions. I am still working on the 4 (soon to be 5) year old.

If you are used to the standard D20 type RPGs, this system has a learning curve. If you are new to RPGs, this system has a learning curve. But honestly, that learning curve is about 1 session. After that, people pick up on it real quick. I bought the beginner game while I was on the road with my 8 year old. She was interested in the dice, so I explained it to her and she was figuring it out with little to no help after only a couple practice rolls.

Figuring out the amount of dice becomes second nature.

Interpretting the dice pool becomes very quick and simple.

The boost/setback dice are no more arbitrary than any bonus or negative modifier in any other system, and they aren't nearly as powerful as they add yet another random element.

The guy that wrote that review is nothing but a Paizo/D20 defender trying to run off anybody threatening his interests. If you look through the discussion on the same page, the only negative comments are coming from the guy that wrote the review.

Perhaps someone should rectify the situation and write a proper review, based on actual game play, of both the beginners game and the corebook. Just to "prove" that tard wrong. Mentioning 7 year olds playing the game with ease is a good thing

There is a discussion based on the review (which was from back in December) that just renewed with the release of the Core Book. Just dusted off my Paizo Board persona to make a post.

So, in short:

Paizo fanboy trashes system he's clearly never played in order to make himself feel better on the Internet.

Possibly. I would caution against becoming the thing being criticized. I'm not saying the statements are inaccurate just that there's no reason to "stoop to their level"

My 7 year old can build his own dice pools after only a couple short sessions. I am still working on the 4 (soon to be 5) year old.

Yeah my 8 and 9 year old had basically no trouble getting dice pools by the time we finished the Beginner Box adventure.

Perhaps someone should rectify the situation and write a proper review, based on actual game play, of both the beginners game and the corebook. Just to "prove" that tard wrong. Mentioning 7 year olds playing the game with ease is a good thing

Sorted. Fortunately it was a slow day here at work.

Mind you, I didn't give it a perfect 5 stars (I really hate the box that the game came in and the canned game is a touch railroady), but I think I counterpointed that boob pretty well and emphasized the good points that he glossed over.

Well anyone that feels the need to state things like:

- First let me say I've been playing all sorts of rpg's since 1980

- I usually really like arthouse movies and have seen all of David Lynch's movies

- Normally I am all for experimental music

- I have been to Asia over 20 times

usually doesn't get his review read by me. If someone feels a need to establish some kind of seniority before he starts a write he usually is doing this because of insecurity or because he actually isn't all that senior at all.

But this time I did read it all the way through and I suspect (very strongly) that he has not played the game and has only read the booklet(s.) For one he doesn't refer to anything specific that happened in play and secondly he states that "determining how many dice and what type to use for even the simplest of tasks is overly cumbersome" which is simply not true.

His one anecdote really seems a fabrication to me.

I could be wrong of course, but I don't think the chances are big I am.

I don't think you are wrong at all, but spot on. I believe he didn't play the game, only read about it, and is apparently a d20/Pathfinder fanboy talking down something different that he doesn't quite understand. Anyone who has actually played both d20 and FFG's dice narrative (dN) system (Warhammer or Star Wars) obviously knows that the later is a huge step easier and more elegant. There is essentially ONE dice mechanic/system to learn. Compare that to how many different concepts you must understand and remember to play d20. Pathfinder/d20 only seems simple to many of us due to the vast amount of experience the typical RPGer has with the most ever played RPG. It's that pre-experience that makes the dN system harder to grasp. A veteran d20 player (most of us) has to unlearn before comprehending dN. A newbie to RPGs, as expressed above, gets it easily.

I'm a beginner and, coincidentally, I've played the Pathfinder Beginner Box and the EOTE Beginner Box (and have since moved onto the EOTE Big Book).

I was really unhappy with the Pathfinder system. The modifiers pretty much told you, up front, whether you should try something. From my perspective, it stifled me. There's probably very little difference in the big-picture but the nature of the boost and setback dice didn't give me the same feeling. Flat numbers might be fomforting to the "I need to know how effective I will be!" crowd but, to me, it stifled me. I felt like I couldn't be the heroic character I wanted to be.

Srsly... I'm not bad at math so if you tell me I need to roll a 16+ to successfully navigate an asteroid field for 6 turns, I'm pretty much figuring out that I've got a .004% chance and I'm turning around. Hand me 3 Setbacks and tell me I'm rolling those each round I'm in there, I'm saying, "NEVER TELL ME THE ODDS!" and diving straight in!

At least among the people I know that play, too many people spoke about their Pathfinder characters in terms of numbers... stuff like Damage Per Round and things like that. With EOTE, people talk about their characters in terms of their achievements. I think these dice have a lot to do with that.

I was really unhappy with the Pathfinder system. The modifiers pretty much told you, up front, whether you should try something. From my perspective, it stifled me. There's probably very little difference in the big-picture but the nature of the boost and setback dice didn't give me the same feeling. Flat numbers might be fomforting to the "I need to know how effective I will be!" crowd but, to me, it stifled me. I felt like I couldn't be the heroic character I wanted to be.

Srsly... I'm not bad at math so if you tell me I need to roll a 16+ to successfully navigate an asteroid field for 6 turns, I'm pretty much figuring out that I've got a .004% chance and I'm turning around. Hand me 3 Setbacks and tell me I'm rolling those each round I'm in there, I'm saying, "NEVER TELL ME THE ODDS!" and diving straight in!

At least among the people I know that play, too many people spoke about their Pathfinder characters in terms of numbers... stuff like Damage Per Round and things like that. With EOTE, people talk about their characters in terms of their achievements. I think these dice have a lot to do with that.

I fell in love with this system when it came out as Warhammer. I always said it encouraged roleplaying over other systems, but I never really thought exactly why other then the dice made you think up descriptions. This is good stuff which explains it so much better then I could have. Thanks for your perspective.

The bolded part in your quote above also speaks greatly of the added enjoyment you can get from this game. My early years of RPG's were back in the 80's when D&D was very simple and streamlined. I recall these kind of conversations amongst friends after a session - "Mike pushed the Goblin Chief off the edge of the tower and was barely able to grasp the edge to keep from going over himself! I then ran over and was able to pull him back up!" Somewhere along the way our games lost that magic as d20 became more and more about numbers, and so more of a wargame then an RPG if you weren't careful as a player and GM. FFG's dN forces the magic back in naturally, without even having to think about it.