I know folks want to give her Marauder, but I think most of what she does can be replicated with the FSE tree.

I think the real reason is that she is slight of build. Summer Glau was not a big girl. So to imagine her killing stuff is hard to say the least. The only equivalent is extreme skill. Assasin or Marauder. I've already given up on intelligence since that is better suited to the Medic, or Mechanic.

I believe I saw a mock write up for the characters a few posts in. Just my two pence: Simon's Intellect was 4, whereas you listed River's as 3 - this contrasts with Simon's statement of "I'm very smart... so when I say that my sister makes me look like an idiot child, I want you to understand my full meaning."

I believe I saw a mock write up for the characters a few posts in. Just my two pence: Simon's Intellect was 4, whereas you listed River's as 3 - this contrasts with Simon's statement of "I'm very smart... so when I say that my sister makes me look like an idiot child, I want you to understand my full meaning."

So Simon is 3 and River is 12,000

Story writers don't have to deal with 'game balance' and other wishy washy stuff us RPG folks have to deal with.

In a game sense you are better off redistributing roles (i.e. intelligence and knowledge) to different characters. Another odd guy out is the Sheppard Book. In what there is of the TV series, he was a fountain of knowledge on all things legal and illegal. He was also pretty good a knee capping.

Story writers don't have to deal with 'game balance' and other wishy washy stuff us RPG folks have to deal with.

While this is generally true, Joss Whedon and his gang are a rare exception. He always has something for everyone on the gang to do. Sure, certain characters get the spotlight more often, but in most episodes of FIREFLY, BUFFY, and ANGEL, everyone has a role to play (ie, "game balance").

I would argue that's one of the reasons why AVENGERS was so successful as a movie. One of the challenges with a team like the Avengers (or JLA) is how do you (as a storyteller or GM) design an encounter that is equally challenging to Iron Man AND Hawkeye? Having cut his teeth on Buffy and the Scoobies and the crew of Serenity, this guy knows his stuff.

In general, though, you're right. I remember using a point-based system to try to replicate Riggs and Murtaugh and the imbalance made my head hurt.

I know folks want to give her Marauder, but I think most of what she does can be replicated with the FSE tree.

I think the real reason is that she is slight of build. Summer Glau was not a big girl. So to imagine her killing stuff is hard to say the least. The only equivalent is extreme skill. Assasin or Marauder. I've already given up on intelligence since that is better suited to the Medic, or Mechanic.

Yes, but remember, the nice thing about this system is that skills have as much weight as attributes. See also, in the FSEx talent tree, Touch of Fate and Intense Focus.

As has been pointed out, River is primarily good against MINIONS. Sure, the implication is that she can do a number of someone else, but if we're doing a representation of the characters as demonstrated, in most cases when we see River fight, it's really just 1 or 2 excellent rolls against a group of minions (and a good shot against Jayne).

I believe I saw a mock write up for the characters a few posts in. Just my two pence: Simon's Intellect was 4, whereas you listed River's as 3 - this contrasts with Simon's statement of "I'm very smart... so when I say that my sister makes me look like an idiot child, I want you to understand my full meaning."

That was before River suffered from Gruesome Injury at the hands of the Alliance and took several hits to her mental characteristics.

Didn't River fight off dozens, possibly several dozens, of Reavers at the end of Serenity?

Also part of the interesting (and tragic) thing about River is that it really felt like we were just getting to know anything at all about her abilities in the stories that were written.

Obviously she was barely sane at the best of times and didn't have complete control over all these vast abilities of hers, but sadly we only got the 13 episodes and a movie and it felt like there was a lot more to learn about her!

Given that Whedon planned for seven seasons on we only got 15 of the 22 epsiodes that the first season would have been, I'm inclined to agree that we barely scratched the surface on River. Heck, on ALL these characters. Except Wash, who was marked for death, movie or no.

One thing to keep in mind with River is that desite the fantastic stuff we see her do from time to time, she can't become too powerful overall, or else there's an imbalance (whether you're talking about gaming or storytelling). I worked on a Firefly virtual series where we wrote 29 scripts finishing out Season One and telling the story of the movie as a 22-episode arc for Season Two. One of the problems we were facing with Season Three was how to deal with "Just let River take care if it." A GM -- or Joss Whedon -- would have dealt with the same problem eventually.

River cannot effectively be built using standard character rules, because 95% of the time, she's working at 25% effectiveness. To me, the best way to reflect that is a number of abilities that require Destiny points or that can only be used once per encounter or day. Honestly, she should probably have no passive abilities, an Int of 5, and Anatomy Lessons.

We see River fight in, what, three scenes? In the series, she takes out a small minion group with a Ranged (Light) attack. Easy enough with a lucky roll. In the other two scenes, she takes on what appears to be mutliple groups of minions and emerges unharmed. With average Brawn and a solid Brawl or Melee (say, 3), I don't think it would be especially hard to take out a few minion groups, especially with a melee Defense boosted by Sense.

Another thing to keep in mind with River is that we see her use a different combat skill in each scene: Ranged (Light), Melee, and Brawl. Focusing too much on any one skill would not be an accurate representation.

Honestly to accurately reflect River, you'd need to create some sort of "flip" ability. I'd go with something like:

Combat Trance: Enter this state by (spending a Destiny point or committing a Force die). While in this state, you may upgrade each combat skill roll 3 times. Suffer 2 strain each round. This state ends voluntarily or when you exceed your strain threshold. This ability can be used once per session.

I believe I saw a mock write up for the characters a few posts in. Just my two pence: Simon's Intellect was 4, whereas you listed River's as 3 - this contrasts with Simon's statement of "I'm very smart... so when I say that my sister makes me look like an idiot child, I want you to understand my full meaning."

I kept that in mind, but remember that River isn't exactly in full control of her faculties. She's still one of the smartest members of the crew, even though she's been reduced to a much more child-like state due to the trauma she's been through.

I was planning to run something like the TV series and movie. I would not give the player total control of the 'River' character until 'Miranda'. Then as 'River' becomes sane, I would branch off into a new story line, and give complete control of the character to the player.

I have one other house rule in my games... if you don't have Force abilities at the start, you can't get it later unless someone trains you. Not likely to happen. 'River' will be a Force Exile with Force Sense only.

I was thinking that the new story line would be something along the lines of obtaining plans for the new Death Star to feed into the real star wars movie time line.

The other characters would also have their own story lines which will work here. I would like to emphasize that your other players need to have fun. All this emphasis on 'River' is missing the point of the game.

Perhaps you could instead have River be an NPC in the control of the GM? She's more of a plot device than a character, IMO.

That works particularly well. The scene with Kaylee dropping the gun, River picking it up, and one-shotting the minions becomes a matter of Kaylee's player rolling a Despair and a few Triumphs, with no net Successes. Obviously something *really* cool, and plot-furthering happens, but what? The GM makes a suggestion, that leaves the players at the table going, "WTF? She can do that? Woah! What does that mean?!".

Perhaps you could instead have River be an NPC in the control of the GM? She's more of a plot device than a character, IMO.

You know... every player and their dog will want the force character... And man that character gets to shine a lot.

Having the DM take it, is just plain cruel. (DM gets the doctor or the mechanic. I'm sure its in the rules some where. Right up there with D&D and Clerics.)

That works particularly well. The scene with Kaylee dropping the gun, River picking it up, and one-shotting the minions becomes a matter of Kaylee's player rolling a Despair and a few Triumphs, with no net Successes. Obviously something *really* cool, and plot-furthering happens, but what? The GM makes a suggestion, that leaves the players at the table going, "WTF? She can do that? Woah! What does that mean?!".

To my eyes, its hard to exactly recreate a scene. I think the DM shouldn't bother. I mean, talk about rail road.. chugga chugga woo woo!

I think that you need to go ahead with an idea and then see where it takes you. In my case, we'll have a crazy person who's an active player. I'll be placing restrictions on said player. I mean... would you give River a knife? No. Getting attacked? Yes. It really boils down to the interaction you have in the group.

If my players were to recreate the airlock scene... DM character (Doc or Mechanic) is guarding door with 'River'. Doc takes it in the arm and drops. 'River take the sword....'

Its equally funny for the other players to come back from their foray into the space station, and wonder how all those people got hacked up.

Captain tight pants: "River? Are you OK?"

*DM passes one liner to player*

River: *Drops Sword* "Also I can kill you with my mind."

Ariel betrayal doesn't work with players... So you need to make that more like a proper smash and grab. If 'River' ever gets pinched... "... two by two with hands of blue..."

Also the player I have in mind is looking forward to the role playing improvisations. And as I said its only until River gets sane. I'm planning to ask the player very direct questions around combat... 'Are you afraid of that person?' If so.. Force Sense drops into place, and 'River' dodges that much better.

Perhaps you could instead have River be an NPC in the control of the GM? She's more of a plot device than a character, IMO.

You know... every player and their dog will want the force character... And man that character gets to shine a lot.

Having the DM take it, is just plain cruel. (DM gets the doctor or the mechanic. I'm sure its in the rules some where. Right up there with D&D and Clerics.)

Except River is just a plot device for the vast majority of the time - I doubt a player would spend most of their character's time sitting in the med-lab, or sleeping, or throwing things around, and generally being disruptive and not contributing to the crew.

Except River is just a plot device for the vast majority of the time - I doubt a player would spend most of their character's time sitting in the med-lab, or sleeping, or throwing things around, and generally being disruptive and not contributing to the crew.

I agree... but you can say that about any of the characters from Firefly. If you're not Malcom, you probably didn't have a role in every episode. Do you really want to play Inara when they steal the Lassiter? "Let me know when the adventure is over..."

Its a time honored technique to take characters from something you like and mix and match into something you want.

I only have so many people at my table (I get 4 to 6 on any given day), I need to pack my group's capabilities into that... The original show had Inara, Kaylie, Jayne, Wash, Book, Zoe, Mal, Simon, and River. If I pack that down to 4-6 I'm sure to have a more consistent use for all the players\Characters in question. I'm also stuffing it into the Star Wars universe.

To recap what I'm thinking;

Twilek Male (brother) - Marauder/FSE/Force Sense (Crazy to start and cannot control his power)

Twilek Female (sister) - Bounty Hunter\Gadgeteer (Heavy Ranged + Gunner)

Rodian Male - Medic (Ranged, Doctor, Knowledge)

PD-40 Droid - Mechanic\Slicer\Knowledge. (Grenades)

Human Male - Scoundrel, Ranged, Pilot, lots of social skills and contacts.

That's 5 characters... perhaps I could separate out the Mechanic as another character (mostly NPC) who can do odd jobs like, pick up the Lassiter.

In combat the Twileks are the hard line on the ragedy edge. The others are back up for those situations.

Story writers don't have to deal with 'game balance' and other wishy washy stuff us RPG folks have to deal with.

In a game sense you are better off redistributing roles (i.e. intelligence and knowledge) to different characters. Another odd guy out is the Sheppard Book. In what there is of the TV series, he was a fountain of knowledge on all things legal and illegal. He was also pretty good a knee capping.

Book's a retired Alliance Operative. He's a trained Psychopath... but he got better. He's proof there's hope for the Operative in Serenity...

Bounty Hunter, probably assassin spec, as first spec. Politico as second, academic as third spec.

Perhaps you could instead have River be an NPC in the control of the GM? She's more of a plot device than a character, IMO.

You know... every player and their dog will want the force character... And man that character gets to shine a lot.

Having the DM take it, is just plain cruel. (DM gets the doctor or the mechanic. I'm sure its in the rules some where. Right up there with D&D and Clerics.)

Except River is just a plot device for the vast majority of the time - I doubt a player would spend most of their character's time sitting in the med-lab, or sleeping, or throwing things around, and generally being disruptive and not contributing to the crew.

I know of one player that I had in my group that would prove that this statement is hopelessly optimistic.

Story writers don't have to deal with 'game balance' and other wishy washy stuff us RPG folks have to deal with.

In a game sense you are better off redistributing roles (i.e. intelligence and knowledge) to different characters. Another odd guy out is the Sheppard Book. In what there is of the TV series, he was a fountain of knowledge on all things legal and illegal. He was also pretty good a knee capping.

Book's a retired Alliance Operative. He's a trained Psychopath... but he got better. He's proof there's hope for the Operative in Serenity...

Bounty Hunter, probably assassin spec, as first spec. Politico as second, academic as third spec.

Book is NOT a retired Alliance Operative. If you want to see his history, read "The Shepherd's Tale."

Frankly, he doesn't have a ton of combat training, from what I recall (beyond military basics), but has a ton of knowledge and deception. Deception should be through the roof, because he's basically lied to everyone he's ever met.

Based on the spoilers I've heard for AoR, River becomes much easier to do as a Force-user. Rather than Sense, she probably has Enhance (which allows her to enhance her Brawn-based rolls). Well, probably Sense AND Enhance.

Since we don't know what the new talent trees look like, it's too early to know if they fit any of the characters better than EotE, but the Pilot spec is repeated in the new Ace career. Since Wash began life as a shipping (ie, non-criminal) pilot and had dreams of going back to that life, he would probably be more suited to Ace/Pilot than Smuggler/Pilot.

Based on the spoilers I've heard for AoR, River becomes much easier to do as a Force-user. Rather than Sense, she probably has Enhance (which allows her to enhance her Brawn-based rolls). Well, probably Sense AND Enhance.

By the time we really see her cut loose (in the Movie), it's probable that she would have Enhance. Throughout the show, however, there's little to support her having that. Definitely a lot to support Sense, though.

I'd tend to agree that she's probably best handled as an NPC, simply because she works mostly as a plot device. Even in some of the episodes that focus on something happening to her, she's still mostly a *passive* participant. (In Ariel she doesn't do much of anything, even when they're fighting the two guards. When she & Simon get abducted by the Hill Folk, she's a plot device, not an active participant in those scenes. Etc.)

But, she's not impossible to stat out as a PC if you have a player who wants to run with such a concept.

Story writers don't have to deal with 'game balance' and other wishy washy stuff us RPG folks have to deal with.

In a game sense you are better off redistributing roles (i.e. intelligence and knowledge) to different characters. Another odd guy out is the Sheppard Book. In what there is of the TV series, he was a fountain of knowledge on all things legal and illegal. He was also pretty good a knee capping.

Book's a retired Alliance Operative. He's a trained Psychopath... but he got better. He's proof there's hope for the Operative in Serenity...

Bounty Hunter, probably assassin spec, as first spec. Politico as second, academic as third spec.

Book is NOT a retired Alliance Operative. If you want to see his history, read "The Shepherd's Tale."

Frankly, he doesn't have a ton of combat training, from what I recall (beyond military basics), but has a ton of knowledge and deception. Deception should be through the roof, because he's basically lied to everyone he's ever met.

Yep. As near as I can tell, Book was part of Alliance Intelligence, responsible for getting information about, and coordinating attacks against, the resistance. In reality, he was a deep-cover double-agent, and worked his way up to a position where he could plan an operation which would strike a crippling blow to the resistance, but leaked details so that the Independents could turn in into an ambush of their own. He was the 'forced to retire in disgrace', but he still had a long and successful record with the Alliance.