Hello,

couldn't find it in the existing threads, so here's my question:

the Tech Priest in our group bought himself two additional bionic limbs with drills, mounted on his hips. He says they give him +20 strength directly to his stats each.

I didn't question that until today when i was about to build a model for his character from GW 40k miniatures. So i tried to find that piece of gear in the books to get a better description of how it would look like, but couldn't find it so far in neither the Rogue Trader, nor the Dark Heresy Books (we use a combination of the systems for characters, gear, etc..)

Now, all i found was the "Servo Limbs", which gives no strength bonus but has a reference to the "Bionic Arm", and the "Manipulator Mechadendrite", which is a mechadendrite and gives +20 strength to tests wenn using the mechadendrite for it (so i guess not for skills like "Intimidate")

Do i miss something? Did he miss something?

It seems he's talking about Mining Helot Augmetics, Pg. 139 of the Inquisitors Handbook.

They give you an extra limb with breacher(See: Big Drill), str and toughness +10, -10 ag, 1d10 insanity

I'd say the stat increases come from upgrading his frame to bear the rigours of mining, but they definitely wouldn't stack.

hmm, that sounds the closest to what he seems to use... and you're right, the wouldn't stack... maybe I should have a word with our GM...

Althouhg I recognise this character is trying some crazy min-maxing, I would be willing to accept either interpretation on this. The rules for cybernetics say that bonuses/penalties do not stack for bionic limbs, but the Mining Helot says that it's directly modifying characteristics, not providing a bonus. Thus the necessary reinforcement to have this implemented twice could conceivably apply a +20 to Strength, but also a matching -20 to Agility (and +2d10 Insanity but I have yet to meet a player who cares about their Insanity Level before 75). Your description said that the limbs provide a +20 to Strength each, which is incorrect. Each limb should provide +10 to Strength and -10 to Agility.

Although that sounds impressive, there are a few things to keep in mind. First, these limbs are by no means subtle, and given the now striking penalty to his agility most enemies should be able to stay out of his melee range pretty easily given that Tech-Priests are already not known for their swift movements. Second, the weapons themselves are Exotic, so your Tech-Priest will need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use them in combat. Third having two of them is tricky because the description for the breacher says to wield one in combat effectively you need a strength bonus of at least 5. If he's trying to attack with two of them at once, then it's possible your GM should rule (I would) that he needs a strength bonus of 10 to try and use both of them effectively. Also normal penalties for attacking with multiple weapons would still apply.

I've talked to the player again, and the +20 bonus for one drill was of course nonesense, he gets +10 from each and the other +20 from other stuff.

But now he says of course he can use two, there is no rule against it, AND he simply uses better craftmanship versions to avoid the insanity and the agility drawbacks -.-

I don't believe better craftmanship works like that. Sure, he can use two, but using Good or Best quality still gives you the agility penalty and the insanity.

It's up to the GM, but I'd rule that attaching two drill weapons to your love handles lowers one's agility and the pain of actually using them can drive a person mad. If a cybernetic augmentation doesn't list a change for better quality bits, there's usually no change in the mechanics.

I swear a little voice in my head thought he would try the Craftsmanship argument. I am in complete agreement with jabberwoky here. The Mining Helot Augmentations are meant to be implanted in disposable menial workers, and there's no mention of quality affecting any difference on the augmentations. I can't see the Mechanicum caring enough to design high-quality augmentations for what should be servitor labour.

Presumably best quality would be lighter because that's not unreasonable, but saying that best quality means no agility or insanity gain should just be shut down. I would view the Insanity gain coming from your mind now having to adapt to having extra arms that are also mining drills.

RAW state that the advantage for Good or Best cybernetics are in the individual cybernetic descriptions. So, unless the Mining Helot Augmentations state an advantage to Good or Best, there isn't a mechanical advantage. The fluff seems to support that you can buy Good versions to make it less obtrusive, but that is more of a roleplaying distinction and would not affect the Agility or Insanity (Really, how unobtrusive is a pair of huge drills coming out of the side of your hips???). Note that Best quality cybernetics usually don't have a game benifit, but are instead ornate and impressive example of technology. Many Tech Priests would probably prefer Best for its appearance, even if it has no real advantage. The Tech Priest in my group is a Factor of the Lathes, and has allways tried for Good quality to make them less obtrusive (where applicable).

I would probably not allow two copies of the Augments, as the changes to the body to reinforce and strenghten it for even one drill are rather extreme. I imagine that trying to double up on that enhancement would be very stressful on the characters frame and might not be possible. If I did allow it, I would never allow the player to blow off the disadvantage just because he says so. The rules are clear, and the player is trying to min-max without accepting that his arguments aren't even particularly logical by the fluff either.

I think we're forgetting, at least partly, that it's not just about the drills, it's Mining Helot Augmentic s .

I would be willing to accept that he's got two drills. Fair enough.

But why should one set of augmentics, which increases his strength and reduces his agility, apply twice? It would be like buying two sets of Bionic arms and argue that you apply them to yourself twice. You obviously can't.

As for the Craftsmanship argument, that may hold some merit - if he's run it through the GM first, and I don't think he has. There are no mechanical benefits to Craftsmanship unless listed, except "GM ruling", which is explicitly said in the books.

Bring it to your GM:s attention. Your Tech-Priest is being "that guy".