Does the skill Scathing Tirade work against beasts? Or any kind of non-verbal animals?

RAW says yes. The Order 66 podcast tells you straight from the developer's mouth though...

"A good GM knows when to throw a whole part of the book out and do things his own way." (paraphrasing)

I wouldn't allow coercion checks to pass against an enemy that did not understand you. Since the talent is called "Tirade" and tirade is defined as an angry speech, and coercion checks against an enemy's presence or cool, it doesn't make sense to win against all beasts or aliens that can't speak your language.

EotE is too narrative to be a rules lawyer.

"BAD GUNDARK!"

RAW says yes. The Order 66 podcast tells you straight from the developer's mouth though...

"A good GM knows when to throw a whole part of the book out and do things his own way." (paraphrasing)

I wouldn't allow coercion checks to pass against an enemy that did not understand you. Since the talent is called "Tirade" and tirade is defined as an angry speech, and coercion checks against an enemy's presence or cool, it doesn't make sense to win against all beasts or aliens that can't speak your language.

EotE is too narrative to be a rules lawyer.

I agree with every part of this except for the part where you call out the talent's name as justification.

Fluff descriptions, by and large, shouldn't override rules. There was the whole debate about Convincing Demeanor and Skulduggery a while back, with people citing the word 'demeanor' as justification for not allowing the talent to do what it was specifically worded to let you do.

I wouldn't allow coercion checks to pass against an enemy that did not understand you. Since the talent is called "Tirade" and tirade is defined as an angry speech, and coercion checks against an enemy's presence or cool, it doesn't make sense to win against all beasts or aliens that can't speak your language.

It depends on the intelligence and size of the animal. You can coerce a cat or a dog. Not so much a panther.

I wouldn't allow coercion checks to pass against an enemy that did not understand you. Since the talent is called "Tirade" and tirade is defined as an angry speech, and coercion checks against an enemy's presence or cool, it doesn't make sense to win against all beasts or aliens that can't speak your language.

It depends on the intelligence and size of the animal. You can coerce a cat or a dog. Not so much a panther.

Wouldn't this suggest just increasing the difficulty of the roll versus not allowing it to be effective at all?

For example, to coerce my own dog, who I have trained and who thinks of me as the alpha dog of her pack, might be a 1 Difficulty roll with a Boost die because of my training of her or something. (obviously to get her to go outside or for a walk would not require a roll, but to do something she didn't want to do might)

But to coerce a panther might be a 4 Difficulty or more with a Setback die because cats don't like doing what they're told?

But I'm not sure specifically about Scathing Tirade, I think I'd say that if it's a primitive, nonverbal creature, that it couldn't understand the words and might not even understand the body language, so it wouldn't be effective.

I wouldn't allow coercion checks to pass against an enemy that did not understand you. Since the talent is called "Tirade" and tirade is defined as an angry speech, and coercion checks against an enemy's presence or cool, it doesn't make sense to win against all beasts or aliens that can't speak your language.

It depends on the intelligence and size of the animal. You can coerce a cat or a dog. Not so much a panther.

Wouldn't this suggest just increasing the difficulty of the roll versus not allowing it to be effective at all?

For example, to coerce my own dog, who I have trained and who thinks of me as the alpha dog of her pack, might be a 1 Difficulty roll with a Boost die because of my training of her or something. (obviously to get her to go outside or for a walk would not require a roll, but to do something she didn't want to do might)

But to coerce a panther might be a 4 Difficulty or more with a Setback die because cats don't like doing what they're told?

But I'm not sure specifically about Scathing Tirade, I think I'd say that if it's a primitive, nonverbal creature, that it couldn't understand the words and might not even understand the body language, so it wouldn't be effective.

Good points. And I agree, not sure about scathiing tirade, was specifically talking about coerce/charm.

Dang, I thought this thread was going to be a tirade against beasts in the game.

"BAD GUNDARK!"

Girl Genius had a recent comic *exactly* on point for this discussion. And then an even more recent follow-up. Of course, both were repeats of one from long ago which was told in the past tense. "Saw it? I waded through it!"

Think about it. With the right attitude and tone of voice, you can completely cow a vicious dog, or wild animal. Sometimes.

Fluff descriptions, by and large, shouldn't override rules. There was the whole debate about Convincing Demeanor and Skulduggery a while back, with people citing the word 'demeanor' as justification for not allowing the talent to do what it was specifically worded to let you do.

It really has to be a GM call. There are simply too many possibilities in the Star Wars universe for any ability to work 100% of the time, and any given ability can be interpreted to work in several different ways.

As a rule of thumb, though, I'd say that a good GM will try to allow PC abilities to work whenever it is even remotely reasonable. Scathing Tirade may not work against many beasts, but it is usually better to upgrade the difficulty or add setback dice (because the beast doesn't find the character very intimidating, or isn't easily threatened, or simply isn't capable of understanding) than to say "no, it doesn't work."

As a player, I would rather fail at an attempt than have the GM tell me I can't even try. Also, with EotE's dice, it is entirely possible that the attempt will backfire and give the GM some threat to spend on fun complications ("You move towards the Antarian Gorger making threatening gestures. It steps back in dismay and makes a series of loud whistling sounds. Moments later, its mate comes crashing out of the tanglevines to defend it!")

"BAD GUNDARK!"

There is no way in hell I would disallow that.

"BAD GUNDARK!"

Girl Genius had a recent comic *exactly* on point for this discussion. And then an even more recent follow-up. Of course, both were repeats of one from long ago which was told in the past tense. "Saw it? I waded through it!"

Think about it. With the right attitude and tone of voice, you can completely cow a vicious dog, or wild animal. Sometimes.

On a side note, "Murgle" might be my favorite giant fat monster waddling away noise of all time.

This would be entirely contextual for me.

Against an animal/species that the PC's are familiar with, probably.

Against something from a different planet, but similar to something they are familiar with, maybe.

Against something completely alien/ no frame of reference, nah.

I think what the player says they are doing to use the talent should factor in – or even be the determining factor on whether it even has a chance.

A player who tells me they want to use Scathing Tirade against a feral animal leads to me asking how.

If they say they want to talk the beast down, in a cold and calculating fashion, then it would be a heavily penalized roll if I allowed the roll at all (probably not).

I'd be ok with a player saying that they scream out and make themselves intimidating (using their ability to communicate to do the right things, ergo the talent use). I'd apply some penalties, but I think it's appropriate.

A politico droid in my group has said that part of his talent involves loud klaxxons, so that would totally work in this case.

The important thing here is to look at the narrative first, both the situation and what the player says they do. The rules should come in afterwards based on that.

My take would be A. How they narrate it has to make sense, and B. I would probably add 2-(Ranks in Survival) setback dice. (Min zero).

This would be entirely contextual for me.

Against an animal/species that the PC's are familiar with, probably.

Against something from a different planet, but similar to something they are familiar with, maybe.

Against something completely alien/ no frame of reference, nah.

In the third option, would you disallow the player to make a roll at all, or would you just make it an extremely difficult check?

I think what the player says they are doing to use the talent should factor in – or even be the determining factor on whether it even has a chance.

A player who tells me they want to use Scathing Tirade against a feral animal leads to me asking how.

If they say they want to talk the beast down, in a cold and calculating fashion, then it would be a heavily penalized roll if I allowed the roll at all (probably not).

I'd be ok with a player saying that they scream out and make themselves intimidating (using their ability to communicate to do the right things, ergo the talent use). I'd apply some penalties, but I think it's appropriate.

A politico droid in my group has said that part of his talent involves loud klaxxons, so that would totally work in this case.

The important thing here is to look at the narrative first, both the situation and what the player says they do. The rules should come in afterwards based on that.

This makes a lot of sense! Thanks!

Also remember that Scathing Tirade is only going to be working on the scale of what, a couple strain on a few enemies (on a great day)? The improved version adds a single setback die for a couple rounds. It's not some amazing lol-spammable "game-winning" exploit waiting to happen here guys and gals. Certainly less of a potential in-game mechanical annoyance than Force Users yanking weapons out of anyone's hands for a single force point.

Scream all you want at the mynocks. If you manage to scare them all away? Heck yeah! Those things are an annoying chore on the best day. Thanks for letting us get back to the scenario at hand.

Scold that Rancor to the best of your ability. It's probably going to eat you next round anyway.

Glancing at the title, I thought I was going to see someone upset at the number of beasts or their descriptions in the core book.

Carry on.

Those darn beasts! They're so ... beastly! I can't stand it it, they're all doing beast-y things! They've got some nerve!

Also remember that Scathing Tirade is only going to be working on the scale of what, a couple strain on a few enemies (on a great day)? The improved version adds a single setback die for a couple rounds. It's not some amazing lol-spammable "game-winning" exploit waiting to happen here guys and gals. Certainly less of a potential in-game mechanical annoyance than Force Users yanking weapons out of anyone's hands for a single force point.

Scream all you want at the mynocks. If you manage to scare them all away? Heck yeah! Those things are an annoying chore on the best day. Thanks for letting us get back to the scenario at hand.

Scold that Rancor to the best of your ability. It's probably going to eat you next round anyway.

Excellent post!