Joining this debate way too late and after it seemingly have been settled, but I am relieved to see/reead that the "ruling" ended up as I would assume/think it should. The thing with the "literal" interpretation I simply find to be completely overkill and dare I say a bit silly??

I mean, come on....obsessing/focusing on whether or not the physical card was dealt in this or any previous round and even contemplating keeping track of this "just in case" something like this comes up??

There is certainly a difference in how the damage is dealt. Once the cards have been dealt though, there is no distinction in the cards themselves.

Ok, since you think there's no distinction between normal and critical damage, if I ever play you any damage cards you receive are face up and any damage cards I receive are face down.

I'm honestly not sure if I'm just being trolled at this point. I say there's a distinction between critical and normal in how they're dealt, and you suggest that I think there's no distinction we should change how they're dealt?

Let's try it one last time, just for fun.

There are three parts to the attack/damage process in X-wing. Dice results, damage, and cards.

Dice results are either solid or filled bursts. We tend to call these "normal" and "critical" for shorthand, but they're never actually named in the rules. Dice results turn into damage, with the type of damage based on the icon.

Damage can be normal or critical. The type of damage will determine how cards are dealt.

Damage cards are just cards. They can be face up or face down, but "normal" and "critical" are not terms which are ever used in relation to the cards themselves. It's always face up, and face down, and nothing else.

Players will commonly shorthand "critical" and "normal" damage in for convenience (and probably because it sounds cooler) but the rules and abilities only ever refer to the damage card as face up or face down, never as "critical" or "normal". This is not meaningless coincidence, or space-saving, or lazy shorthand. It's far too consistent for that. Literally every ability that refers to damage cards refers to them as face up or face down - R5 Astromech, R5-D8, Chewbacca, Proton Bomb, Saboteur... Always face up or face down.

I'm not really surprised by the ruling - anyone who bothers to actually read what has been said might see that it's exactly how I suggested it should be played in the first place.

I'm pretty sure that you are supposed to keep records of everything that happens in the game for exactly this scenario. This way when you receive that damaged cockpit card you can move all of your pieces back to the point that you received the card, then apply the effects at the actual moment intended on the card.

There is certainly a difference in how the damage is dealt. Once the cards have been dealt though, there is no distinction in the cards themselves.

Ok, since you think there's no distinction between normal and critical damage, if I ever play you any damage cards you receive are face up and any damage cards I receive are face down.

I'm honestly not sure if I'm just being trolled at this point. I say there's a distinction between critical and normal in how they're dealt, and you suggest that I think there's no distinction we should change how they're dealt?

Sarcasm is not your strong suit, is it? I mentioned nothing about rolling any dice or dealing cards. My comment is regarding your belief that there is no distinction between face down and face up cards and my comment was to show just how wrong you are.

Let's try it one last time, just for fun.

Ooooh, let's do that, shall we?

There are three parts to the attack/damage process in X-wing. Dice results, damage, and cards.

Correct, continue

Dice results are either solid or filled bursts. We tend to call these "normal" and "critical" for shorthand, but they're never actually named in the rules. Dice results turn into damage, with the type of damage based on the icon.

You're right, they're never named as "normal" or "critical"....except on Page 13 under "Deal Damage"....and on pages 14 and 15 in the Combat Phase Example....and on page 16 under "Suffering Damage" and "Critical Damage"....hmm, seems that the word critical is mentioned several times in the rule book after all

Damage can be normal or critical. The type of damage will determine how cards are dealt.

Correct...continue...

Damage cards are just cards. They can be face up or face down, but "normal" and "critical" are not terms which are ever used in relation to the cards themselves. It's always face up, and face down, and nothing else.

But how does one determine whether a card is placed face up or down? Face down cards are placed with a normal hit and face up cards are placed for critical hits. There is a distinction, or difference, between the two as well, with a face down card having no extra effects above marking hits to a ship and face up cards having extra effects. To claim there is no distinction or difference between face up and down cards is wrong because they perform different functions. If they were not distinct then they would do the same thing. Also the term face down card is equivalent to the term normal damage and the term face up card is equivalent to the term critical hit and are interchangeable with each other.

Players will commonly shorthand "critical" and "normal" damage in for convenience (and probably because it sounds cooler) but the rules and abilities only ever refer to the damage card as face up or face down, never as "critical" or "normal". This is not meaningless coincidence, or space-saving, or lazy shorthand. It's far too consistent for that. Literally every ability that refers to damage cards refers to them as face up or face down - R5 Astromech, R5-D8, Chewbacca, Proton Bomb, Saboteur... Always face up or face down.

As I've shown above, the term "critical" is mentioned several times in the rules. As for the use of face up or down, it's there for consistency and ease of player usage.

I'm not really surprised by the ruling - anyone who bothers to actually read what has been said might see that it's exactly how I suggested it should be played in the first place.

You certainly started that way but, as the thread progressed, you seemed to migrate to the other side.

And since further discussion with you would lead to this (you're the one on the right)....

I'm done with this thread.

You're right, they're never named as "normal" or "critical"....except on Page 13 under "Deal Damage"....and on pages 14 and 15 in the Combat Phase Example....and on page 16 under "Suffering Damage" and "Critical Damage"....hmm, seems that the word critical is mentioned several times in the rule book after all

Page 13 says "The hip ship suffers one damage for each uncanceled {Solid Star} result, and then suffers one critical damage for each uncanceled {Open Star} result".

Ah ha! Caught you changing the rules to suit your own purposes! There is no such thing as a "hip ship!" You are forever discredited and are now disbarred from the association of rules lawyers for life!

Just kidding. Carry on.

There is certainly a difference in how the damage is dealt. Once the cards have been dealt though, there is no distinction in the cards themselves.

Ok, since you think there's no distinction between normal and critical damage, if I ever play you any damage cards you receive are face up and any damage cards I receive are face down.

I'm honestly not sure if I'm just being trolled at this point. I say there's a distinction between critical and normal in how they're dealt, and you suggest that I think there's no distinction we should change how they're dealt?

Let's try it one last time, just for fun.

There are three parts to the attack/damage process in X-wing. Dice results, damage, and cards.

Dice results are either solid or filled bursts. We tend to call these "normal" and "critical" for shorthand, but they're never actually named in the rules. Dice results turn into damage, with the type of damage based on the icon.

Damage can be normal or critical. The type of damage will determine how cards are dealt.

Damage cards are just cards. They can be face up or face down, but "normal" and "critical" are not terms which are ever used in relation to the cards themselves. It's always face up, and face down, and nothing else.

Players will commonly shorthand "critical" and "normal" damage in for convenience (and probably because it sounds cooler) but the rules and abilities only ever refer to the damage card as face up or face down, never as "critical" or "normal". This is not meaningless coincidence, or space-saving, or lazy shorthand. It's far too consistent for that. Literally every ability that refers to damage cards refers to them as face up or face down - R5 Astromech, R5-D8, Chewbacca, Proton Bomb, Saboteur... Always face up or face down.

I'm not really surprised by the ruling - anyone who bothers to actually read what has been said might see that it's exactly how I suggested it should be played in the first place.

Allow me to quote directly from the rules (p. 16):

C ritical D amage

When a ship suffers damage, players deal the

Damage card facedown and ignore the card’s text.

However, when a ship suffers critical damage,

players deal the Damage card faceup.

The text on faceup Damage cards is resolved as

instructed on the card. Listed above this ability is a

trait (either Ship or Pilot). The trait has no effect,

but it may be referenced by other cards or abilities.

When a ship is dealt a damage card faceup, place a

critical hit token near the ship.

How can this, by any means, be interpreted in any other way that a Critical Damage is received when (or at the moment) the Damage card is dealt face up ??

Allow me to quote directly from the rules (p. 16):

C ritical D amage

When a ship suffers damage, players deal the

Damage card facedown and ignore the card’s text.

However, when a ship suffers critical damage,

players deal the Damage card faceup.

The text on faceup Damage cards is resolved as

instructed on the card. Listed above this ability is a

trait (either Ship or Pilot). The trait has no effect,

but it may be referenced by other cards or abilities.

When a ship is dealt a damage card faceup, place a

critical hit token near the ship.

How can this, by any means, be interpreted in any other way that a Critical Damage is received when (or at the moment) the Damage card is dealt face up ??

Because it's not bidirectional. A Proton Bomb deals a face up damage card without dealing critical damage, or indeed damage of any sort (this is why it bypasses shields). Critical damage causes a face up card to be dealt, but there are other ways to deal face up cards without critical damage.

In relation to the original question, Saboteur doesn't deal a card in any way. It takes a damage card which was already dealt, and changes the state from face down to face up. The card is not being received at that point - the card was already there on the ship.

Damaged Cockpit also doesn't refer to when the damage was received, or when the effect on the damage card becomes active. It refers only - and explicitly - to when the card was received. That card is that card, and was received by the ship when it was first placed on the ship.

Hip Ship, must be a new YT-1300 variant. Groovy.

Page 13 says "The hip ship suffers one damage for each uncanceled {Solid Star} result, and then suffers one critical damage for each uncanceled {Open Star} result".

Ah ha! Caught you changing the rules to suit your own purposes! There is no such thing as a "hip ship!" You are forever discredited and are now disbarred from the association of rules lawyers for life!

Just kidding. Carry on.

This makes a lot more sense now that you fixed the quote

Page 13 says "The hip ship suffers one damage for each uncanceled {Solid Star} result, and then suffers one critical damage for each uncanceled {Open Star} result".

Ah ha! Caught you changing the rules to suit your own purposes! There is no such thing as a "hip ship!" You are forever discredited and are now disbarred from the association of rules lawyers for life!

Just kidding. Carry on.

This makes a lot more sense now that you fixed the quote

Nothing like spoiling your own punch line right? Thanks FFG new forum post editing software.

Just jumping in here with a thought about all this.

By the direct reading of Damaged Cockpit, it does say "when you receive this card". The issue comes from thinking of the card as being received physically in the round it was pulled off the stack and dropped in front of a ship. That works for me, but receiving a card can also mean when a card gets flipped from hit to critical. And here's why:

Most cards decks are one side is the meaning of the card, the other is a generic background common to all the cards and is meant to obfuscate the card amongst the others in the deck. So one side has meaning, the other does not.

In X-wing, the generic side now has the distinction of counting for a hit, and the text side counts for a special critical. What you have is, in effect, two cards in one. When a card gets flipped from a hit to a critical, you are getting the other card in the dual card, just as when you flip a critical over you now only suffer a hit. It works if you realize that a ship that gets damaged suffers a hit and a critical at the same time, just only one can apply at any given time.

I can see both arguments here but i see it going nowhere.

In an effort to give hothie an answer by majority vote once more people join in....

My vote is with zathras23 's interpretation.

Guess that makes 2-2 at the moment.

You can't just take a vote on how you would personaly like the rule to be.

It can only ever be from the time you receive the critical via saboteur, previously the card was only a hit. A hit and a critical hit are two distinct things, if people are arguing its from the time you got the hit how do you know when that was unless uoi can recall exactly when that ship was given that exact card.

Even if you could keep tract of things the card says ramdon. Lets say the first hit was on an unshielded craft was a critical hit which needed resolving. You resolved it and placed it face down. Your opponent now uses saboteur and you only have two cards in order of when you got them on the ship. Its not random. So to say oh the second one knkwing what the other one is is not following the wording on the card.

The only way to be sure is to pick up the deck of hits shuffle and put back. You have a 50/50 chance that's ramdom

Even if you have six hits and you know the first and last card, choosing the midfle cards is not ramdom, you excluded two cards deliberately.