This question came up during a discussion over on Team Covenant,and I wanted to see what the community thinks.

Damaged Cockpit"-After the round in which you receive this card, treat your pilot skill value as "0".

So the question is, what exactly does "in which you receive this card" mean? Does it mean the literal translation of when you actually received that card? Or does it mean the round in which you flipped that card over? Because there is a difference there.

When this card gets resolved depends on the answer to that question. If we go with the literal translation, then that pilot would immediately have a Pilot Skill of "0". But if we go with the interpretation of when the card gets flipped over, then that pilot would keep the same skill level until the next round, which would then be a "0".

I'm personally leaning towards going with the literal translation, so it would be resolved immediately, but I could go either way on this.

The way I read the Damaged Cockpit card is that it doesn't take effect until the turn after you receive it. So, if you receive it via the Saboteur in the active pilot's action phase, you would still be moving and shooting at your normal Pilot Skill because it isn't the next turn until the combat phase is over.

I agree. Until it gets flipped over, its not "technically" a Damaged Cockpit card, so it wouldn't kick in until the turn after you flip it. It shouldn't matter how long you had it on your ship prior to it being flipped over, the effect doesn't kick in untl that point.

So let's say I use my Bounty Hunter's Saboteur on your Han Solo, and flip this. What happens to Han's maneuver? We're past PS 0, so you can't maneuver, and the ship just doesn't move. Per strict reading, you never even actually pick up the dial, and Han never gets to move again

I think this is exactly the sort of issue the "next turn" clause is intended to prevent. So, I'd leave it as next turn after the crit becomes visible.

I'm honestly not sure how you'd keep track of it reliably anyway. Say I had two damage on the Falcon at the beginning of this turn, then hit an obstacle and took one more, or (maybe even and ) got hit by an Anti-Pursuit Laser. Now you Saboteur me - which damage cards did I get this turn? Since it says it's supposed to be random, how can you tell which ones you had before this turn? It seems pretty impractical to have to keep track of that all, while having some mechanism for random selection which would let you preserve that information.

I'm honestly not sure how you'd keep track of it reliably anyway. Say I had two damage on the Falcon at the beginning of this turn, then hit an obstacle and took one more, or (maybe even and ) got hit by an Anti-Pursuit Laser. Now you Saboteur me - which damage cards did I get this turn? Since it says it's supposed to be random, how can you tell which ones you had before this turn? It seems pretty impractical to have to keep track of that all, while having some mechanism for random selection which would let you preserve that information.

it's easy to figure out. The facedown cards the target ship has at the time you perform the Saboteur action are the ones you could pick from. To randomize them the controlling player would shuffle the facedown cards and place them facedown on the table. Then you would flip one of those over and apply the critical hit to the target ship.

So, using your example, a pilot moving after Han would use the 4 damage cards on the Falcon and a pilot moving before Han would use just the 2 you had at the beginning of the turn.

I'm honestly not sure how you'd keep track of it reliably anyway. Say I had two damage on the Falcon at the beginning of this turn, then hit an obstacle and took one more, or (maybe even and ) got hit by an Anti-Pursuit Laser. Now you Saboteur me - which damage cards did I get this turn? Since it says it's supposed to be random, how can you tell which ones you had before this turn? It seems pretty impractical to have to keep track of that all, while having some mechanism for random selection which would let you preserve that information.

it's easy to figure out. The facedown cards the target ship has at the time you perform the Saboteur action are the ones you could pick from. To randomize them the controlling player would shuffle the facedown cards and place them facedown on the table. Then you would flip one of those over and apply the critical hit to the target ship.

So, using your example, a pilot moving after Han would use the 4 damage cards on the Falcon and a pilot moving before Han would use just the 2 you had at the beginning of the turn.

You're missing the important part of the problem here. It's not whether or not you use those cards based on when Saboteur goes off - give me a little credit The point is that you've got two cards which were dealt this turn, and two which were dealt last turn. To implement the ruling the way Hothie is suggesting, when you flip a Damaged Cockpit you'd need to know whether the card you flipped was dealt this turn, or last turn, because it will have a different effect.

The only way I could see to do this would be to (1) track cards dealt that turn in a different pile, (2) merge those piles at the end of every turn, (3) have some means of randomization which won't be biased by the piles. The only way I can think of to accomplish this would be to do (1) and (2) and then have a separate dice (probably a d10) to roll and pick a card in order.

It's possible that's how this is supposed to play out, but it seems so far outside the normal play mechanism (and material requirements) that I doubt it. At the point when you have to start adding extra dice requirements which aren't mentioned anywhere else in the game, I think you're going down the wrong path on the ruling.

I'm honestly not sure how you'd keep track of it reliably anyway. Say I had two damage on the Falcon at the beginning of this turn, then hit an obstacle and took one more, or (maybe even and ) got hit by an Anti-Pursuit Laser. Now you Saboteur me - which damage cards did I get this turn? Since it says it's supposed to be random, how can you tell which ones you had before this turn? It seems pretty impractical to have to keep track of that all, while having some mechanism for random selection which would let you preserve that information.

it's easy to figure out. The facedown cards the target ship has at the time you perform the Saboteur action are the ones you could pick from. To randomize them the controlling player would shuffle the facedown cards and place them facedown on the table. Then you would flip one of those over and apply the critical hit to the target ship.

So, using your example, a pilot moving after Han would use the 4 damage cards on the Falcon and a pilot moving before Han would use just the 2 you had at the beginning of the turn.

You're missing the important part of the problem here. It's not whether or not you use those cards based on when Saboteur goes off - give me a little credit The point is that you've got two cards which were dealt this turn, and two which were dealt last turn. To implement the ruling the way Hothie is suggesting, when you flip a Damaged Cockpit you'd need to know whether the card you flipped was dealt this turn, or last turn, because it will have a different effect.

The only way I could see to do this would be to (1) track cards dealt that turn in a different pile, (2) merge those piles at the end of every turn, (3) have some means of randomization which won't be biased by the piles. The only way I can think of to accomplish this would be to do (1) and (2) and then have a separate dice (probably a d10) to roll and pick a card in order.

It's possible that's how this is supposed to play out, but it seems so far outside the normal play mechanism (and material requirements) that I doubt it. At the point when you have to start adding extra dice requirements which aren't mentioned anywhere else in the game, I think you're going down the wrong path on the ruling.

I think the problem is that you're over thinking the Saboteur card's ability. It doesn't matter when the damage card was applied to the target ship, whether in the current turn or previous ones. It only matters that a damage card is on the target ship when you activate Saboteur. The critical hit generated by Saboteur becomes active the moment you flip the card, following whatever text is on the card.

For example, with the Damaged Cockpit critical, it doesn't take effect until the next turn so the target ship would still get to move and fire at it's normal PS the turn the critical is generated. However any other critical effects that take place immediately like reduction of attack dice would affect the target in the current turn. As for picking a random card, shuffling the ones that are there, placing them on the table face down and picking from them fulfills the random part...no dice needed.

I think the problem is that you're over thinking the Saboteur card's ability. It doesn't matter when the damage card was applied to the target ship, whether in the current turn or previous ones. It only matters that a damage card is on the target ship when you activate Saboteur.

Hothie's point is that it may very well matter when the damage card is applied to the ship. And he has a solidly arguable point - the card is the card, and was received when the ship received the damage, NOT when the card was flipped by Saboteur. I understand that you've asserted several times now that the card is considered to be "received" when the critical is flipped, but you haven't really provided any actual rules to support that point. If Damaged Cockpit said "The turn after this effect comes into play" then there wouldn't be any question. But I think Hothie's right that from a literalist reading, the turn the card was received is the turn the card was dealt - not the turn the card was flipped by Saboteur.

My point is that playing it like this creates some very strange situations that would seem to be well outside intent, and is relatively impractical to actually track during the course of the game. So even if he is correct as to the literal reading (which I'm inclined to think he is) it may not matter, because we can't implement the literal reading. As much as I hate RAI, I doubt strongly that the intent of Saboteur is to create a situation where a ship loses its activation completely.

Edit: I also think we need to be very cautious about the idea that "received" damage occurs when a card is flipped. It seems like that one has all sorts of potential side effects.

I think the problem is that you're over thinking the Saboteur card's ability. It doesn't matter when the damage card was applied to the target ship, whether in the current turn or previous ones. It only matters that a damage card is on the target ship when you activate Saboteur.

Hothie's point is that it may very well matter when the damage card is applied to the ship. And he has a solidly arguable point - the card is the card, and was received when the ship received the damage, NOT when the card was flipped by Saboteur. I understand that you've asserted several times now that the card is considered to be "received" when the critical is flipped, but you haven't really provided any actual rules to support that point. If Damaged Cockpit said "The turn after this effect comes into play" then there wouldn't be any question. But I think Hothie's right that from a literalist reading, the turn the card was received is the turn the card was dealt - not the turn the card was flipped by Saboteur.

My point is that playing it like this creates some very strange situations that would seem to be well outside intent, and is relatively impractical to actually track during the course of the game. So even if he is correct as to the literal reading (which I'm inclined to think he is) it may not matter, because we can't implement the literal reading. As much as I hate RAI, I doubt strongly that the intent of Saboteur is to create a situation where a ship loses its activation completely.

Edit: I also think we need to be very cautious about the idea that "received" damage occurs when a card is flipped. It seems like that one has all sorts of potential side effects.

The rule I'm using is the text as written on the Saboteur card. The critical hit generated by Saboteur becomes active the moment you flip the facedown damage card. Until that point it's just a regular point of damage with no extra effects on the target ship. For example, you receive normal hits on turn 1 & 2. Then, on turn 3, your opponent uses Saboteur to turn one of those hits (let's say the one from turn 1) into a critical. The critical hit is received the moment the card is flipped, as if it was dealt on turn 3 in a normal attack, even though the normal damage card was received on turn 1.

Here's how I see it, as written on the Saboteur card....

1: Use action to activate Saboteur.

2: Pick a ship within range 1.

3. Roll 1 attack die.

4. If a hit or critical is rolled, pick one face down damage card at random, flip it and resolve the critical. There is no mention of when a damage card is received in resolving Saboteur so you use all of the facedown damage cards that are on the target ship, no matter when they were received, at the time you activate Saboteur. The flipped card counts as if the critical hit on it was received at the time you activate Saboteur.

5. If the critical hit has an immediate effect such as Direct Hit, it becomes active at the point the card is flipped by Saboteur. If the critical hit has a delayed effect like the Damaged Cockpit, you resolve it when the card tells you to.

The critical hit is received the moment the card is flipped, as if it was dealt on turn 3 in a normal attack, even though the damage card was received on turn 1.

...

If the critical hit has a delayed effect like the Damaged Cockpit, you resolve it when the card tells you to.

First, I really appreciate you going into such depth to explain the card that we all understand. There is no question about how Saboteur works - the question is the timing of Damaged Cockpit and what time "round after this card is received" means. You continue to assert - with zero actual support - that it's when the card comes face up and the effect comes into play. Unfortunately, there are several problems with this.

First, it doesn't say that it goes into effect the turn after the critical hit is received. It says it goes into effect the turn after the card was received. The critical effect comes into play immediately when it is flipped, but that effect does not say it's dependent on when the effect is received, it says it's dependent on when the card was received. Those are two different things.

Second, there really is no concept for when the critical hit is received, at least as far as the cards are concerned. Damage cards are dealt. Those damage cards may be face up or face down, and face up cards may be commonly dealt due to critical damage, but face up cards are not inherently dependent on the concept of critical damage. The Proton Bomb is a good example of this - if Damaged Cockpit doesn't go into effect until the turn after the critical damage, what happens when it comes up via Proton Bomb where there is no damage at all? You constantly refer to the card as the "critical hit", but it's not a term that actually has anything to do with the question at hand.

Damage cards are cards, whether they're face up or face down. That card was dealt by taking it from the deck, and placing on the ship, at which point the ship has received that card. There is no rules distinction that says a card is somehow received or dealt when it is flipped. Saboteur does not say the target receives a new card - exactly the opposite, it says it affects a card which is already on the ship. For that card to be present, it must have already been received.

So we agree on pretty much all the steps on how to do Saboteur. The point of contention is "resolve it when the card tells you to." Hothie's point is that the effect activates based on when the card was received - the CARD, not the effect. If the card was received three turns ago, then you are immediately inside that window, and it comes into effect.

Now as I've said, I don't think this is a practical way to play the card even if it is strictly correct, and would handwave it to make it manageable if it should ever come up (which seems unlikely). But he certainly has a point.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this and wait for the FAQ. My opinion is that you and Hothie are over thinking this situation and making the card resolution through Saboteur overly complex. I believe in the KISS principal and am applying it to the way I believe Saboteur interacts with the damage cards. I'd like to see the opinions of other players on this subject.

I can see both arguments here but i see it going nowhere.

In an effort to give hothie an answer by majority vote once more people join in....

My vote is with zathras23 's interpretation.

Guess that makes 2-2 at the moment.

The way I read the Damaged Cockpit card is that it doesn't take effect until the turn after you receive it.

Yes, the turn after you receive "the card", as the wording of Damaged Cockpit says. So, The target ship would immediately become a "0", as per the literal translation, which Buhalin has explained.

But I brought the question up because there is the other interpretation of when you receive the effect.

I gotta get ready for work, but I still am leaning towards the literal interpretation.

I realise this does not help but as said i lean towards the non literal explanation and just assume that was the intention from ffg, but that they have yet again failled to proof read their cards well enough to realise the open door they have created. I base this partly on the issues mentioned about having to keep track of cards and have a ship take no movement in a turn.

I can't believe that would have been their intention.

This is crazy. The effects of damaged cocpit should be in play the turn after the saboteur card is used to flip that card over. Even if you count that damage card from the turn it was played, it was only a damage card at that point and no a critical damage card.

If you want to insist that the damage cocpit be immediate because the original damage card was dealt three turns ago, then I insist that we revert back 2 turns and apply all the effects.

This argument is ridiculous. Is this the effect of card gamers playing a miniatures game?

And night beast SHOULD be able to take his free focus after executing a green maneuver while stressed, but he can't. I was wrong about that one because I was applying what I thought should happen rather than what the cards and timing actually are. This is no different.

I think, applying a literal translation, the effect is immediate, and the affected ship would be a 0.

I still haven't seen a convincing argument to the contrary, but ill send it in to James to see what he says.

If you want to insist that the damage cocpit be immediate because the original damage card was dealt three turns ago, then I insist that we revert back 2 turns and apply all the effects.

Card effects can only change the game state when they're actually in play, regardless of what they would have affected while they weren't in play. Even if the timing means it was active, the effect wasn't in play, and can't go back any more than "All turns are red" would affect the turn you made last round. Because it says "All" right, so I insist that we go back to the last round - nay, the entire game! - and change all your turns to red?

Not that anything you're insisting actually has anything to do with the rules. I pointed out above that there's no actual game difference between a damage card and a critical damage card - there are only cards that are face up, and face down. I'm starting to think the reason you're so adamant about the game being simple is that you simply can't keep up with the discussion.

If you can provide some functional difference between a damage card and a critical damage card - backed by terminology in the rules, please, not just because your beer said so and the pretzel failed to make a convincing counterargument - then do so.

We can have this discussion without personal attacks.

I sent this in to James, so ill ask for a response on Thursday.

I'd say the core problem here is that damaged cockpit, and infact all the critical damage card effects, were writen long before they decided to put in a way to convert a normal hit to a critical after the fact. I'd say that once sabator is used after the end of the combat round and the start of the next turn is when it takes effect. It's not the damage being recieved but the critical effect.

Just my opinion though, others are probably much more familiar with the exact wording of the rules. I feel the above is the spirit of them though. Applied immediatly and it potentially makes things confusing or loses a lot of the bite of the crit. To not apply it at all because too many turns have passed and it would require a pointless amount of bookkeeping for a rare event.

I guess I see it simpler. The ps is 0 immediately, so if that player hasn't activated yet, it skips its activation during that phase. There doesn't have to be anything retroactive at all. It can still attack, but now its a ps 0 when it does.

This makes complete sense thematically as well, as the sabotage happened beforehand, and is now rearing its ugly head.

But strictly from a rules perspective, I read it as when the player actually received the card, which was previously, so the card would take effect immediately. My impression is the designers wrote it that way for clarity sake when wave 1 came out, and like you said didn't have a thought if dealing cards prior to flipping them over.

I can see that, but I can also see a saboteur activating a special code for some hidden device in a cockpit blowing the main bus lines to the avionics because the saboteur sent the code trying to further disable a ship.

ORS: Wow! that got him!

Saboteur: Nah, watch this...

*Pushes button*

KA-POW!

BAM!

SPLAT!

Saboteur: Bwahahahaha

I sorry but I think I

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this and wait for the FAQ. My opinion is that you and Hothie are over thinking this situation and making the card resolution through Saboteur overly complex. I believe in the KISS principal and am applying it to the way I believe Saboteur interacts with the damage cards. I'd like to see the opinions of other players on this subject.

I'm sorry but to me it sounds like you both (Zathras and Buhallin) agree on how it should be ruled; just not on the explanation.

Which, btw, seems to make the most sense. The card is flipped, and for whatever reason you guys agree to it is considered activated this turn. So if it's effects are immediate then they happen now; but as in the case of "Damaged Cockpit" they will take place next turn.

Buhallin is right that there is no mechanism to track which turn which damage was dealt especially when the card says choose a random face down card. zathras is correct is pointing out applying this effect as if the card was just dealt simplifies everything.

So shouldn't you agree to agree even if it is for different reasons?

If the target ship had damage from an earlier round and had acquired damage this round (such as from hitting an obstacle) they would have multiple damage cards from multiple rounds, including this one.

As the Saboteur specifies "Choose 1 random facedown damage card" the target could shuffle and present the damage cards to choose from. You will not know if the damaged cockpit was from this round or an earlier round. I believe fairest way to resolve it would be to play the critical damage as if it had just been applied.

Edit. Thats what happens when you only read the start and end of a thread, Buhallin has already given this example

Once again another case of a great FFG game that will require an errata/FAQ about the size of the games rulebook.

@Darkheart: It would be possible to know which cards were dealt when even when you randomize, it's just a pain. See above for a possible way to do it.

@Ken: I think there are two differences between my position and Zathras. First, I'm truing to deal with the rules, and only moving to an RAI or practicality point after we fully understand the impacts of playing things as written.

Most of the time someone deploys "intent" it has nothing to do with actual intent, and everything to do with how someone wants it to work. I despise having to go to intent, so make very sure that when I do I have fully understood the situation.

That's very different from just declaring intent and victory, even if it foes end up in the same place.