Maybe I missed a turn here but I don't think anyone was advocating secret rolls when dealing with life and death... really I'm just going to use them on those occasional unknown unknowns kinda rolls.

As for the insta-death roll, it's going to happen at some point but character death is never the result of one roll. It's always a series of actions and roll(s) that lead to that last one, so for me I'd go with it and let the character die. It's happened to me and I only needed a few months of therapy. I guess though it might be best only to play with people that have insurance...

At least a few people have said all rolls are hidden when the DM. In the past all my rolls were hidden behind the screen. I've learned with this system and watching new GMs on the interwebs that this isn't necessarily the best way to do things.

It's not unheard of. In Pathfinder the GM rolls Perception checks for the players in secret so as not to tip his hand when the party moves into line of sight of something that's hidden. I feel like that's absolutely appropriate here too.

Alternately, you can make them roll when they don't need to, which means they'll never be sure if it's real, but it still keeps things open.

Keep in mind that in Pathfinder, like any other game built on the d20 system, the roll *only* determines success/failure status. That's not the case in EotE. In EotE, there's possible 'side effects' to rolls beyond, "Did I succeed or not?". With a hidden roll, you lose that. Or at the very least, you lose the ability of the *players* to take part in the narrative result of their roll by not letting them know it has even happened. Hidden rolls may work well enough, or even be optimal, in some systems, but I don't think that EotE is one of them, in no small part to the dice mechanics of the system.

If you *really* want a hidden roll, you shouldn't set it up as the PCs making the roll. Instead, set it up as the NPC making the Stealth or Survival check (depending on the environment), vs the Perception of the PCs to track them without being noticed.

If you *really* want a hidden roll, you shouldn't set it up as the PCs making the roll. Instead, set it up as the NPC making the Stealth or Survival check (depending on the environment), vs the Perception of the PCs to track them without being noticed.

This is a good idea but then it's still hidden so the difference is moot. Unless your suggesting that you roll the NPC's roll is in the open, which is essentially the same as if you have the PC roll in the open.

I too have generally hid my dice rolls in all other systems. But with EotE I roll out in the open. And I love it. There are two reasons for this:

1. The reason that everyone in this thread is a proponent of it, and I won't repeat here.

2. Now this I haven't seen talked about yet. One of the best things about EotE is how fast and fluid the system is. With one single dice roll, the player knows A. If they were successful or not. B. How successful they were. C. How much damage/advantage/threat/triumph/despair they have. So if I were to start rolling the negative dice behind the screen, even that would affect the speed of the game.

Because of number 2, combat is sped up TREMENDOUSLY. In games of yore? Combat went like this.

*player rolls*

"I rolled a 17 + 7. So....24." (this can take longer if the player isn't a super whiz at math)

*GM checks NPC stats along with buffs/debuffs*

"You hit."

*player rolls a second set of dice*

"I do ..... 8 + 3 + 4.... + 4 for agility..... so ........ 19 damage?" (again, slower if player is bad at math)

*GM checks damage thresholds, if that number exceeded it, deducts how many it is from the total hitpoints, writes down if they received a debuff from taking so much damage*

And that happens Every. Single. Turn. Every. Time.

EotE? It goes like this:

*player rolls the dice pool*

"I hit for 12 damage but have 1 threat."

"The stormtrooper doubles over in pain but is still on his feet. To make that shot was a bit stressful for you, so suffer 1 strain."

BAM! Done.

I also like the idea of my players deciding what threat happens to the bad guys on their roll. Plus the book says some talents the players need to see what the results are of the NPC rolls in order to utilize them when certain things happen.

If you *really* want a hidden roll, you shouldn't set it up as the PCs making the roll. Instead, set it up as the NPC making the Stealth or Survival check (depending on the environment), vs the Perception of the PCs to track them without being noticed.

This is a good idea but then it's still hidden so the difference is moot. Unless your suggesting that you roll the NPC's roll is in the open, which is essentially the same as if you have the PC roll in the open.

I *do* roll everything out in the open.

What I was pointing out is that if you *really* want to do a hidden roll, make the roll from the perspective of the NPC, not the PC. This has the following impacts:

1) There is no possibility of rolling net Advantage or Triumphs that the PC should be able to spend, but won't be able to because they don't even know the roll happened.

2) You have full control over how to spend any Advantage or Triumph that show up on the roll, because it wasn't a PC's roll.

2) You have full control over how to spend any Threat or Despair that show up on the roll. The players could ordinarily make suggestions, but you aren't bound to accept them anyway.

3) You can use the 'aiding' rules to build the difficulty die pool, so you only have to resolve *one* roll, rather than one roll for each PC.

The players don't lose anything there, other than the opportunity to make better suggestions on how something is spent. (The players get to spend their Advantage & Triumphs however they like, subject only to approval by the GM, but they don't have the same free reign with Threat and Despair rolled by NPCs.)

I too have generally hid my dice rolls in all other systems. But with EotE I roll out in the open. And I love it. There are two reasons for this:

1. The reason that everyone in this thread is a proponent of it, and I won't repeat here.

2. Now this I haven't seen talked about yet. One of the best things about EotE is how fast and fluid the system is. With one single dice roll, the player knows A. If they were successful or not. B. How successful they were. C. How much damage/advantage/threat/triumph/despair they have. So if I were to start rolling the negative dice behind the screen, even that would affect the speed of the game.

Because of number 2, combat is sped up TREMENDOUSLY. In games of yore? Combat went like this.

*player rolls*

"I rolled a 17 + 7. So....24." (this can take longer if the player isn't a super whiz at math)

*GM checks NPC stats along with buffs/debuffs*

"You hit."

*player rolls a second set of dice*

"I do ..... 8 + 3 + 4.... + 4 for agility..... so ........ 19 damage?" (again, slower if player is bad at math)

*GM checks damage thresholds, if that number exceeded it, deducts how many it is from the total hitpoints, writes down if they received a debuff from taking so much damage*

And that happens Every. Single. Turn. Every. Time.

EotE? It goes like this:

*player rolls the dice pool*

"I hit for 12 damage but have 1 threat."

"The stormtrooper doubles over in pain but is still on his feet. To make that shot was a bit stressful for you, so suffer 1 strain."

BAM! Done.

I also like the idea of my players deciding what threat happens to the bad guys on their roll. Plus the book says some talents the players need to see what the results are of the NPC rolls in order to utilize them when certain things happen.

I see what you mean, however I feel like you're being slightly disengenuous. Maybe your group has learned to be faster with the rolls, but for the entire first session of EOTE, our group would roll the dice pool and then stare at the results for a few seconds trying to interpret the pile of symbols. Of course it gets faster over time, but the "12 damage" doesn't come to them instantly. It's usually like this (and maybe your group IS different, but i have a feeling most groups go like this)

*look at dice*, maybe even rearrange them around, removing dice that have blanks

"Okay, 4 successes, 3 failures, so that's one success. My weapon does...6 damage, plus 1 success, so 7 damage."

"Also, 1 threat, 3 advantage...so, 2 advantage". Then spending a few seconds deciding how to spend the advantage.

It may be faster than D&D, but it still involves collating some numbers and doing a little figuring or comparing of dice.

I think it's a bit faster after players get used to the new dice, because its one roll, but even if it took the same amount of time, figuring out a dice result in EotE is a far more interesting process.

The players don't lose anything there, other than the opportunity to make better suggestions on how something is spent. (The players get to spend their Advantage & Triumphs however they like, subject only to approval by the GM, but they don't have the same free reign with Threat and Despair rolled by NPCs.)

I think we're not arguing the same point. The reason I occasionally hide a roll is not to penalize the players or just to keep the players from knowing the results, it's to keep them from knowing that I even had to roll at all and therefor giving away something that will break the tension of the scene.

As for what the players loose, they loose the uncertainty of the results of their action. Tension is uncertainty.

Very few situations will benefit from secret rolls but in my opinion those few are worth it.

Finally started reading the rule book for dungeon crawl classics (completely new to it except for running a few of the premades back in 3.5 so if you got tips advice please send em my way) and in the second point of the GM section it says "Always roll your dice in public." The reasoning is a bit different because the system is intentionally deadly and the players should respect that but still it's a transition from what I'm used to in RPGs.

We tried something new in our game last night that I liked. The GM wanted the group to make Perception rolls, but didn't want it to be obvious whether we succeeded or failed. We rolled the positive dice in the open, and he rolled the difficulty dice in secret behind his screen.

We'll probably make that an ongoing house rule.

Open checks always for combat. I very rarely roll behind the screen (for obligation though).

I want players to interpret that dice pool and I want to make it clear that the dice fall as they do.

We tried something new in our game last night that I liked. The GM wanted the group to make Perception rolls, but didn't want it to be obvious whether we succeeded or failed. We rolled the positive dice in the open, and he rolled the difficulty dice in secret behind his screen.

We'll probably make that an ongoing house rule.

fantastic idea, I love it. I'm defintely doing this. That way, they can feel like the GM isn't rolling FOR them (partially, anyway).

The players don't lose anything there, other than the opportunity to make better suggestions on how something is spent. (The players get to spend their Advantage & Triumphs however they like, subject only to approval by the GM, but they don't have the same free reign with Threat and Despair rolled by NPCs.)

I think we're not arguing the same point. The reason I occasionally hide a roll is not to penalize the players or just to keep the players from knowing the results, it's to keep them from knowing that I even had to roll at all and therefor giving away something that will break the tension of the scene.

As for what the players loose, they loose the uncertainty of the results of their action. Tension is uncertainty.

Very few situations will benefit from secret rolls but in my opinion those few are worth it.

No, I understand that. But when you make the roll, don't make it as if the PC were the one taking action, make it as though the NPC were the one taking the action. The players don't lose out on anything in that scenario. If you make a secret roll for a PC, the player *does* lose out on something in this system. And it's a 'something' which is built into the game mechanics.

Basically, if the PC is doing something which requires a roll, they player should know about it. If the player shouldn't know that their PC is doing something, then it's probably an NPC, and not the PC who is doing it. If the NPC is doing something, you should roll for the NPC, not the PC.

Think about it this way. The example we've been using is that the PC(s) are being tailed, and you want to roll a secret Perception check so they don't know the results. If the PC isn't saying, "I want to keep an eye out to make sure we're not being tailed.", then the PC isn't taking an action. Given that, roll from the NPC's perspective.

If the PC *is* saying that, then they're taking action enough to be able to benefit from spending the associated Advantage and Triumph in whatever manner is appropriate, which means you don't get to hide the roll, or even the result of the roll *without* penalizing the PC.

In the end, it's probably better (as well as being both simpler and easier) to simply trust your players not to act on out-of-character knowledge, and just roll openly. But, if you really see a need for a secret roll, roll it from the NPC's perspective, you you're going to end up penalizing a PC by disallowing them from utilizing the benefits of a check they made even if they *do* fail at the check.

This campaign I'm making a conscious effort to not make the players' characters the ultimate heroes who'll save the galaxy (and as such are immortal until the plot has been served), and as such... those open combat rolls should reintroduce a little fear into every encounter.

Well, it's really hard to kill characters in this game, and to me, player take-down doesn't mean death now, it means a change in scene and an opportunity to further the story. I used to roll D20 behind a screen because inevitably I'd roll a critical or two in a row just as the players were getting to the breaking point. Not only did this throw off the plot, it made the rules for Death kick in. Then the players would inevitably fumble their healing, and now I have to deal with player disappointment, plot screwing, and time wasted getting new characters up to speed. Not to mention the players aren't as invested in the story of their characters if they know it's easy to die.

This game doesn't have such strict rules for death, meaning I don't have to worry about mechanics that work against the story. That, combined with an almost 3D dice result set (or, as a friend said it, putting the Z-axis on dice results) means there is usually enough flexibility to mitigate the worst situations.

I realize that the string of events to create the situation is pretty rare and extreme, but IIRC the critical hit tables include entries that immediately kill a character, or vaporize their ship. I believe they are the very worst (ie, bottom-most) entries on their respective tables, but I don't have my book on hand.

To kill outright, a character must take a crit that had a roll of 141+, tho a 131-140 will eventually kill them in a few rounds, as well.