My friends and I just finished playing the scenario Flies and Spiders (in the 2nd Hobbit saga expansion) and we have two questions:

1. The rules insert says that an unconcious character cannot trigger abilities, and from the FAQ, triggered abilities are defined as "Triggered abilities are abilities on cards that have a bold trigger word such as Action or Response. These abilities are only applied when they are triggered."

I have the new Gandalf (OHaUH 10) in play, which has the card text " Forced: At the end of the refresh phase, discard Gandalf from play...", who becomes unconcious.

Does his Forced Response still trigger at the end of the refresh phase? We played it as it would not trigger.

2. Before we go to Stage 2, an Ancient Mathom (SoM 56, "After the attached location is explored, the first player draws 3 cards") is played on a Location in the staging area. Then we go to Stage 2, and separate the first player to Stage 3 and the others go to Stage 4, which has the Location with the Ancient Mathom.

On subsequent turn, the Location with the Ancient Mathom is explored, can the first player draws 3 cards? We don't think so because the first player is not with that staging area, and the rules insert says that "Players cannot affect other players (or cards controlled by players) that do not share a common staging area. This means that you cannot lower a player’s threat, play an attachment on one of his characters, etc., unless that player shares a staging area with you."; although, incidentally in our case, the Ancient Mathom is previously played by the now first player.

What do you think?

I want to extend the second question by the spirit-event "Desperate Alliance", which gives control of a hero to other players until the end of the phase.

The quest-phase isn´t finished before the players go separate ways (same in Foundations).

So what will happen with that hero? Actually the player must keep the control until the players come togehter again.

1. Forced effects are treated differently from Actions and Responses , and aren't considered triggered abilities (you don't choose to trigger them). Only actions or responses are triggered effects -- as per your quote from the FAQ.

For Desperate Alliance question - the card effect will just be canceled. While it makes sense thematically for the card to persist after the split, its effects must expire at the end of the phase, and probably should just expire immediately once the players are separated into different staging areas on card 2B. I thought about this and wondered, if the hero is loaned to the player with Bilbo, should that hero become unconscious before being returned to its owner, per the quest card text? Then I realized that the staging areas are split up on quest card 2B, and the unconscious effect hits on card 3B. So I would say that the Desperate Alliance effect is canceled immediately once the staging areas are split up, before the players advance to card 3 and 4.

And, I found that other ruling. See the original post here . Flies and Spiders is slightly different from Foundations of Stone. In the spider quest, the first player token does not move once everyone has been split up. In Foundations, it continues to rotate. The situation is more complicated in Foundations, then.

There, the rule was said to be: for a given staging area, the "first player" is the person with the first player token. If that token is currently in a different staging area, the "first player" is the player who is next in line to receive the first player token.

In Foundations of Stone:

So you have 2 staging areas, and players A, B, C, and D. Player A is on staging area 1. Players B, C, and D are on staging area 2.

Turn 1: Player A has the first player token. Player A is the first player for his staging area. Player B is the first player for his staging area, because he is next in line to receive the first player token.

Turn 2: Player B has the first player token. Player A is still the first player for his staging area (being the only player there). Player B is the first player for his staging area.

Turn 3: Player C has the first player token. Player A is still the first player for his staging area. Player C is the first player for his staging area.

And so on.

For Flies and Spiders, the first player token doesn't move. The "first player" for quest card 4 will be the player who is next in line to receive Bilbo. Because Bilbo won't move, the first player will perpetually be the same player until all the players have joined up again.

Thanks for digging up the old thread, that is really a great reference. But don't you think that there should be one first player for each staging area, like the situation is FoS?

Regarding the 1st question, the FAQ states that "Triggered abilities are abilities on cards that have a bold trigger word ...", the part "such as ..." is just example but should not limit to only "Action or Response". The abilities without the bold trigger word are passive abilities while the abilities with the bold trigger are triggered abilities; if Forced effects are not triggered abilities or passive abilities, what are they?

A Forced effect is just a Forced effect! They get their own section in the manual. Actions and Responses are explained in a separate section. Maybe the operative word is "ability" vs "effect," I dunno. Anyway, I definitely don't think Gandalf is excused from his Forced effect if unconscious.

And yeah, that's what I was saying for Flies and Spiders. Two staging areas, two first players. For quest card 3, the first player is the player who has Bilbo. For quest card 4, the first player is the player who is next in line to receive Bilbo. That player will remain the first player for quest card 4 until the staging areas are joined up once again.

Ok, I understand now, thank you for your explanation.

A Forced effect is just a Forced effect! They get their own section in the manual. Actions and Responses are explained in a separate section. Maybe the operative word is "ability" vs "effect," I dunno. Anyway, I definitely don't think Gandalf is excused from his Forced effect if unconscious.

I read again the FAQ and core set rulebook and found that Forced effect should be a triggered abilities, though you have no option not to trigger it. From the rulebook, the bold word "Forced:" is a trigger. And its effect must be "triggered" whenever its specified trigger is met. From the FAQ, article 1.36, Triggered abilities are abilities on cards that have a bold trigger word such as Action or Response... (but not excluding Forced). And so, simply following the rules and FAQ, I gotta say Forced effects are triggered abilities/effects. Though, I have no idea how to rule the Forced effects on an unconscious character.

Well, it's worth shooting over to the developers! Does a Forced effect count as a "triggered ability" and if so would Gandalf stay in play if unconscious at the end of the round in Flies and Spiders?

My money is on "no..." Like I said above, maybe the operative word is "ability," which has never been defined as far as I know. i.e., "Response" and "Action" text counts as an "ability" while "Forced" does not.

I've got the reply from Caleb:

Hi Angus,
Good question. Gandalf's Forced effect is a triggered ability, so if he is made unconscious his Forced effect will not trigger and he will not be discarded at the end of the refresh phase.
Cheers,
Caleb

Good to know! Thanks for asking.