Say I am active player after my opponent has already done his challenges, and I haven't done challenges yet.

If I say, no challenges, does he then get a chance to do a player action like play an any phase event?

If so, then can I decide to do a challenge afterwards, given that two players haven't yet consecutively passed on challenge phase actions.

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What if instead I said, "No actions"? and then he also takes no action? Can I end the challenge phase and go to dominance because two players passed on actions?

Or if I say, "No actions", he then takes an action, then I make a challenge.. This seems a little deceitful in certain situations.

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did this make any sense?

There is a Player Action Window before the Active Player declares any challenges. Note: Since declaring a challenge is not a player action (your question seems to be trying to treat it as such), the Active Player does not get the chance to declare any challenges until all players have consecutively passed on the opportunity to take actions in this window.

A strict reading of the timing chart says that when the final Active Player declares "no challenge" at the beginning of a "Declare Challenge" Framework Action Window, effectively ending all challenge opportunities for that player, the game proceeds to the "End of Phase" without there being another Player Action Window. So if the last Active Player declares no challenges, the phase technically ends without another opportunity to trigger "Challenges" or "Any Phase" effects.

This is similar to the end of the Marshaling Phase. When the First Player says "no action" and the final Active Player says "I'm done marshaling," the Player Action Window closes and the phase ends. However, sometimes when the final Active Player says "I'm done marshaling," the First Player will then try to say "then I take these Marshaling/Any Phase actions." By a strict reading of the rules, the other player(s) can say "no you don't because we passed consecutively," but in reality, people usually "rewind" and allow the First Player to take their actions - but in doing so, you also rewind for the final Active Player, who can also take actions, including marshaling cards (even though he has said "done" before the rewind).

The same sort of thing would happen in the Challenge phase. In the "pass-pass-no challenges" scenario discussed above, if the First Player said "then I take these Challenges/Any Phase actions since you have no challenges," a strict reading of the rules would allow the other player(s) to say "no you don't because passing on the opportunity to make a challenge jumps us to the end of the phase." But you could "rewind" for the First Player and allow him to take his actions, but in doing so, you also rewind for the final Active Player, who could then decide to declare a challenge when you get to the Framework Action Window again.

Hasn't there been a ruling that there is an action window after the last challenge in the challenge phase?

I remember seeing/reading that somewhere as well Khudzlin.

Hasn't there been a ruling that there is an action window after the last challenge in the challenge phase?

nope. It's actually in the FAQ timing chart that after a player declares no more challenges, the framework forces it to the next active player, or, if there are none left, it moves it to the dominance phase without a player action window.

Edit: Page 23, if you're interested.

Khudzlin, we were thinking of this thread: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/55657-player-action-window/

It is determined that there are player actions after the last active player's last challenge, but before he says "no more challenges." Even if the last challenge was his 3rd challenge, since there are actions that can initiate others. So there are actions after each challenge framework, but not after the active player says he is finished initiating challenges. I had misunderstood that initially as well.

Khudzlin, we were thinking of this thread: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/55657-player-action-window/

It is determined that there are player actions after the last active player's last challenge, but before he says "no more challenges." Even if the last challenge was his 3rd challenge, since there are actions that can initiate others. So there are actions after each challenge framework, but not after the active player says he is finished initiating challenges. I had misunderstood that initially as well.

That seems kinda like an angle-shooting way of seeing things, but sure.

agkmte has the right of it here.

The ruling is that there is always a Player Action Window after a challenge resolves. But here, by declaring no challenge at all, there is no challenge. With no challenge, there is no "post-challenge" window.

Said another way, the ruling contemplates the following scenario:

1. Final Active Player's challenge #3.

2. Player Action Window.

3. Final Active Player says "no challenge"

4. Phase ends.

Note that there is no additional player action window between 3 and 4. All we're doing in the answer to the original question is taking out #1.

thanks ktom--this is actually a very important ruling to know for tournament play.

So, to summarize... sorry, just want to be sure I completely understand:

1. If the last active player does not initiate a challenge of any type - "passes" on all challenges, there is no Player Action Window and we immediately move to the End of Phase framework
2. If the last active player initiates ANY challenge, regardless of whether they perform all three or just one, there IS a Player Action Window after that player indicates they are done with challenges.

Is that correct? I'm making sure because that whole thing still looks a little weird to me.

No, that's not quite correct.

There is NEVER a player action window after the final active player says "no challenges," no matter how many challenges s/he has already initiated. There is, however, always going to be a player action window before they have the chance to say "no challenges," no matter how many challenges they have already initiated.

Once the final player becomes the active player, the other players run the risk of that player declaring "no more challenges" and ending the phase if they pass on their opportunity to play actions during the "pre-challenge" action window. It's no different than all the ither players running the risk of the last active player saying "done marshaling" and ending the phase if they pass on their player actions while that player is marshaling.

Okay - glad I asked - that is far more consistent. Somehow through this thread I'd gotten the other impression. Thanks for clarifying.

Ah, it makes sense now.

I can think of several instances where knowing "no more marshalling" or "no more challenges" would be valuable information for various instances of Player Actions one could take or not, so you really need to play this really tight to avoid inadvertently cheating.

First thought off the top of my head: I'm Stark, no characters in play, my opponent has made an intrigue and power challenge but has 2+ STR of standing Military characters. I'm not about to bring Meera Reed out of shadows if she's just going to get claimed, but maybe I really really want to blank his Guard at Riverrun or Riverrun or something else--if I want to take that player action, I have to do it before I know the outcome of the risk I'm taking.

Or let's say I'm playing Targ and I maybe want to ambush something in the same kind of circumstance, I don't want to turn around and lose it. Or it's a Frey Hospitality turn and I want him to try for a UO Intrigue challenge while I have Company of the Cat in hand, make him kill a character, but either way I want to ambush them in before Dominance.

Don't take that Meera risk. "Until the end of the phase" effects wear off before "at the end of the phase" passives initiate. So The Guard would get its text back and be able to draw even if your opponent does not initiate a challenge.

I can think of several instances where knowing "no more marshalling" or "no more challenges" would be valuable information for various instances of Player Actions one could take or not, so you really need to play this really tight to avoid inadvertently cheating.

First thought off the top of my head: I'm Stark, no characters in play, my opponent has made an intrigue and power challenge but has 2+ STR of standing Military characters. I'm not about to bring Meera Reed out of shadows if she's just going to get claimed, but maybe I really really want to blank his Guard at Riverrun or Riverrun or something else--if I want to take that player action, I have to do it before I know the outcome of the risk I'm taking.

Or let's say I'm playing Targ and I maybe want to ambush something in the same kind of circumstance, I don't want to turn around and lose it. Or it's a Frey Hospitality turn and I want him to try for a UO Intrigue challenge while I have Company of the Cat in hand, make him kill a character, but either way I want to ambush them in before Dominance.

Well, it isn't inadvertently cheating, it is called playing like a pro. Example, I did an intrigue on you as targ. Intrigue is over and player action window opens. You get the first action as a targ player (becasue you are first player in this example) to ambush a guy or do whatever. If you pass, and I say, no more challenges we move to dom. If you ambush something in, I can then make a challenge or just still say no more challenges and we move to dom.

Well, it isn't inadvertently cheating, it is called playing like a pro. Example, I did an intrigue on you as targ. Intrigue is over and player action window opens. You get the first action as a targ player (becasue you are first player in this example) to ambush a guy or do whatever. If you pass, and I say, no more challenges we move to dom. If you ambush something in, I can then make a challenge or just still say no more challenges and we move to dom.

If you're going to "play like a pro," let's make sure you get the sequence 100% correct.

Once that intrigue is over, the player action window opens, and the targ player gets first action, if the targ player passes, you are going to need to first pass (closing the player action window by consecutive passes), then say "no more challenges" to move to dominance. If the targ player does ambush something in, you are going to need to pass, then have the targ player pass (closing the action window by consecutive passes) before you get to the decision to make a challenge or not. If you say "no more challenges," you'll move directly to dominance.

As in your original post, your description here seems to treat declaring a challenge as a player action. It's not. Passing on your opportunity to take an action in the pre-challenge player action window is completely separate from saying "no challenges." Make sure you are properly closing the player action window before moving to the opportunity to initiate a challenge (or not). This is really important in your second scenario. If the targ player ambushes something in, you can't say "no challenges" to jump to dom yet because the action window is still open. You can only say "I pass," which gives them the opportunity to take another action, like ambushing something else in.

Well, it isn't inadvertently cheating, it is called playing like a pro. Example, I did an intrigue on you as targ. Intrigue is over and player action window opens. You get the first action as a targ player (becasue you are first player in this example) to ambush a guy or do whatever. If you pass, and I say, no more challenges we move to dom. If you ambush something in, I can then make a challenge or just still say no more challenges and we move to dom.

If you're going to "play like a pro," let's make sure you get the sequence 100% correct.

Once that intrigue is over, the player action window opens, and the targ player gets first action, if the targ player passes, you are going to need to first pass (closing the player action window by consecutive passes), then say "no more challenges" to move to dominance. If the targ player does ambush something in, you are going to need to pass, then have the targ player pass (closing the action window by consecutive passes) before you get to the decision to make a challenge or not. If you say "no more challenges," you'll move directly to dominance.

As in your original post, your description here seems to treat declaring a challenge as a player action. It's not. Passing on your opportunity to take an action in the pre-challenge player action window is completely separate from saying "no challenges." Make sure you are properly closing the player action window before moving to the opportunity to initiate a challenge (or not). This is really important in your second scenario. If the targ player ambushes something in, you can't say "no challenges" to jump to dom yet because the action window is still open. You can only say "I pass," which gives them the opportunity to take another action, like ambushing something else in.

I was skipping a step. But I think it would go like this. Action window opens after intrigue. He was first player. So I can ask him, "Do you have an action before my next challenge?" He says "no." I say, "Ok, I pass too" Then I say, "no more challenges." Then we move to dom?

Is that correct or am I missing something? (I very well could be).

That's exactly right. The step you were skipping earlier was just an important one. Without it, the implication is that the final active player can cut the player action window short by saying "no more challenges" and jumping to Dom. Obviously not the case.

Where is this post-final challenge player action window coming from? If the final active player has no more available challenges, a strict reading of the timing structure would force the end of phase framework to begin. There is no "next active player" or "next challenge opportunity" at that point (the requirement for the player action window).

Was there an official ruling that I'm missing?

Additionally, I feel like we're all misreading how challenges work. There is no construct within the rules that allows for you to choose not to initiate a challenge. Strict reading says you MUST declare all types every phase. Obviously, this is meaningless for the most part as if the attacker declares no attackers the challenge immediately fizzles, but this actually prohibits you from going "I have no more challenges" and skipping straight to dominance. You must go through the formal "I declare no Mil attackers", "I declare no Int attackers", "I declare no Pow" attackers to actually get to dominance even if neither player wants to initiate any challenges.

I think, and I can't find evidence to the contrary in the FAQ, that the "no challenges" thing is actually a huge oversight due to the common "play by convention" mentality where no one really questions it any more.

Core set rules: "After the challenge phase begins, the first player may initiate one of each type of challenge—military, intrigue, and power—against any opponent."

Where is this post-final challenge player action window coming from? If the final active player has no more available challenges, a strict reading of the timing structure would force the end of phase framework to begin. There is no "next active player" or "next challenge opportunity" at that point (the requirement for the player action window).

Was there an official ruling that I'm missing?

Yes, and a frequent one at that.

The official ruling has clarified how you are supposed to read the timing chart. You keep following the "Active Player's Next Challenge Opportunity" arrow back to the "pre-challenge" player action window, no matter how many challenges they have already initiated that phase. So, for example, the final active player does not have to play their Citadel Politics event until after they have initiated their 3 standard challenges for the phase. It's not until the active player says "no challenge" that you jump down to the framework window that starts with "Active Player is finished with challenges."

FFG has clarified and ruled on this many times. It's not a "play by convention" mentality; it's FFG's rules/policy.

And yeah, to reiterate what duolos2k says: you are misunderstanding the way challenges are initiated if you think a player can say "I do my military challenge, but I declare no attackers." A challenge cannot be initiated unless you both call the challenge type and kneel an attacking character. As the rules say "You must declare at least one attacking character to initiate a challenge," meaning that if you do not declare at least one attacking character, the challenge doesn't "fizzle," it NEVER EXISTED. Declaring 3 challenges per phase is optional, not mandatory.

Im speechless too. MDC is a troll right?

Im speechless too. MDC is a troll right?

I don't think so. However, mdc does frequently come up with logically strained rules interpretations that often need to be corrected. That's compounded by the fact that his pronouncements are often given with a great deal of authority, so new players are likely to be confused by his posts.