I suggested limiting the number of acquisitions to your Influence bonus, which gives some of that scarcity and resource management people seem to be missing.

It's already limited anyway, though.

It's already limited anyway, though.

What are the limits to it? I didn't see any, but I probably missed them.

Ah, okay, I see the rule in Commerce about being able to acquire another item of availability equal to or lower than the Degrees of Success (what does this mean? 1 degree of success and you can attempt to acquire something at +10 or lower? +10 or higher? -10 or lower? -10 or higher?) and a failure not allowing the test again for days equal to degrees of failure.That all seems pretty heavily tied in to good and bad luck, and the rule itself is unclear. It also make assumptions about time scale that may or may not work in the game.

3 per session, if my memory isn't screwing up on me.

Where's my money? Player: "I want a melta gun. GM: "Roll" end of story... no saving up for "that" gun or gadget. This system removes the roleplaying aspects of aquiring hard to come by equipment (unless I read it wrong)

Honestly, I kinda like this. I wasn't a fan of the acquisition system to begin with, but I've come around and accepted it as a more faithful interpretation of my vision of the 40k setting.

Essentially, there is no meltagun to save up for. It's not like you can just walk into a store and ask for a meltagun. They are military issue and really hard to come by. The easiest way to acquiring a meltagun should be to make really good friends with your boss and have him draw on his resources to get you the weapon.

The second best way would be to find it on the black market, but this should be a pretty significant undertaking that takes a lot of roleplaying to even locate a seller (hint: if it's rare enough, there might only be a few planets in the sector that even has a chance of having one). This would be the "roleplaying aspect". Since there's no default monetary system, you'll expand the DH1 "roleplaying aspect" (and I assume that, by "roleplaying aspect" you mean something other than "not spending my thrones for a long time") into also involving securing whatever kind of payment or favour the seller want in return. That's even more "roleplay aspect" than before. That's a good thing!

The third way would be to, you know, break into an Imperial Guard facility and steal their cache of meltaguns. Good luck!

To add a further perspective on that - when everything has a price you sometimes get players with a sense of entitlement about equipment. If they save up their five hundred thrones or whatever, they then think they're entited to buy the meltagun even if you want to run a game where such things are scarce. They then start blaming you for blocking them from being able to buy it because the book says it costs X and they have X and the only thing in the way is you.

Not saying players don't get over-entitled anyway, mind you, but it's nice to have support in getting away from the "Magic Shop" mentality.

Don't forget how it encourages players to get attached to their equipment as, if the equipment gets lost, any money spent acquiring it is lost forever.

no saving up for "that" gun or gadget.

At the same time, ranged weapons above SP/Las and melee weapons above chain were unaffordable unless the GM grants extra income. If the GM sticks to the one months pay per 400xp the book seems to recommend, a lot of stuff is simply unaffordable.

And so the players had to become creative, pooling resources, stealing, selling equipment bartering services and/or favours... The money mechanic simply adds another dimension to the game (followed by roleplaying and not "Roll-playing")

All of which requires the GMs permission to work because it is the GM that decides how much money you earn.

It doesn't help that a currency doesn't fit in 40k. Each planet will use their own currencies, and with trade consisting of the Imperium taking what it wants from each planet, there is not going to be any way to exchange them.

no saving up for "that" gun or gadget.

At the same time, ranged weapons above SP/Las and melee weapons above chain were unaffordable unless the GM grants extra income. If the GM sticks to the one months pay per 400xp the book seems to recommend, a lot of stuff is simply unaffordable.

And so the players had to become creative, pooling resources, stealing, selling equipment bartering services and/or favours... The money mechanic simply adds another dimension to the game (followed by roleplaying and not "Roll-playing")

All of which requires the GMs permission to work because it is the GM that decides how much money you earn.

It doesn't help that a currency doesn't fit in 40k. Each planet will use their own currencies, and with trade consisting of the Imperium taking what it wants from each planet, there is not going to be any way to exchange them.

What doesn't require the GM's permission? =)

Here's my problem.

Player 1 has a Cargo-8, a rather large 8 wheeled cargo truck, he doesn't need it anymore and decides to sell it. I don't care how he got it, perhaps he stole it, doesn't matter. How will you handle this in the new system?

Player 1's next purchase gets a +10, +20? But his next purchase is a medical kit, can he save the +20 for later when he needs the MP lascannon? Do you keep track of the different bonusses when he also sells 4 slaves to the black market?

Not all of my groups play Inquisition agents, 2 groups play =I=, 1 group plays bandits/pirates and 1 Group plays as civilians <-- not kidding. Caught up in a horrible war (Vervun Hive =) So requisition doesn't make sense in all of my games.

OFC there is trade in the imperium, OFC there is money and there is no reason not to have a monetary system.

Most arguments for this system are workarounds, GM permissions, inventing bonusses... Why ? When the old money system works perfectly fine.

Any how.. how would you handle the example of the player who sells his truck? (and don't tell me he can't

Here's my problem.

Player 1 has a Cargo-8, a rather large 8 wheeled cargo truck, he doesn't need it anymore and decides to sell it. I don't care how he got it, perhaps he stole it, doesn't matter. How will you handle this in the new system?

Player 1's next purchase gets a +10, +20? But his next purchase is a medical kit, can he save the +20 for later when he needs the MP lascannon? Do you keep track of the different bonusses when he also sells 4 slaves to the black market?

Not all of my groups play Inquisition agents, 2 groups play =I=, 1 group plays bandits/pirates and 1 Group plays as civilians <-- not kidding. Caught up in a horrible war (Vervun Hive =) So requisition doesn't make sense in all of my games.

Honestly, I don't see anything in the system that prevents any of this. Player 1 wants to sell his truck. Cool. Is he anywhere that actually has a market for used trucks? The average citizen probably doesn't have any need for it, and most businesses probably has their own supply of vehicles and don't buy from random strangers. But maybe there's a secret undercity where 8-wheeler racing is all the rage. Maybe there's a market for it. What does he want for it? Local currency? Goods? Favours?

There's really nothing stopping you from going "Well, that guy over there wants to pay 10,000 bottle caps for your truck."

All though, if you run a game where you have gun stores where you can walk in and buy a Lascannon, the requisition system might not optimal. But I don't think that's the default assumption.

Of course there's a lot of trade. There just isn't a lot of trade on the personal level. At least not in the officially sanctioned parts of the Imperium. Any black-market trade is, per definition, a local phenomenon that you, as the GM, have to decide how you want to handle.

Still haven't seen a reason this system is in ANY WAY an improvement...

no saving up for "that" gun or gadget.

At the same time, ranged weapons above SP/Las and melee weapons above chain were unaffordable unless the GM grants extra income. If the GM sticks to the one months pay per 400xp the book seems to recommend, a lot of stuff is simply unaffordable.

And so the players had to become creative, pooling resources, stealing, selling equipment bartering services and/or favours... The money mechanic simply adds another dimension to the game (followed by roleplaying and not "Roll-playing")

All of which requires the GMs permission to work because it is the GM that decides how much money you earn.

It doesn't help that a currency doesn't fit in 40k. Each planet will use their own currencies, and with trade consisting of the Imperium taking what it wants from each planet, there is not going to be any way to exchange them.

What doesn't require the GM's permission? =)

Here's my problem.

Player 1 has a Cargo-8, a rather large 8 wheeled cargo truck, he doesn't need it anymore and decides to sell it. I don't care how he got it, perhaps he stole it, doesn't matter. How will you handle this in the new system?

Player characters aren't a wandering band of murder hobos. They are working for the Inquisition. They shouldn't have to worry about such petty things like selling equipment. Though if it's really rare, they could give it away in exchange for a favor later (influence increase)

Not all of my groups play Inquisition agents, 2 groups play =I=, 1 group plays bandits/pirates and 1 Group plays as civilians <-- not kidding. Caught up in a horrible war (Vervun Hive =) So requisition doesn't make sense in all of my games.

If you're going to play games where you aren't members of the Inquisitor, then the differences between the rules for Inquisition agents and whatever you want to play are your problem.

Though if you're playing pirates, why aren't you either playing Rogue Trader or playing in a different setting ?

OFC there is trade in the imperium, OFC there is money and there is no reason not to have a monetary system.

That is not how the Imperium works. The Imperium works by telling each planet what it supplies in its tithe. Then, if a planet needs something, they ask the Imperium to provide it. The Adminstratum tries to match up needs to what each planet supplies.

As for those who do trade outside the tithing system, they don't trade currency. They trade goods and favors. Which is why Rogue Trader uses an Influence system.

Probably not the best way about it (though managing a banking system between star systems will not be easy given the communication options and how ignorant the average human is of the galaxy), but how often does the Imperium do anything the best way ?

Most arguments for this system are workarounds, GM permissions, inventing bonusses... Why ? When the old money system works perfectly fine.

Except for the bit where it doesn't make sense how you're switching currency from one planet to another.

Except for the bit where it implies you're working for the Inquisition part time, and money is somehow crossing the light years to get to you.

Except for the bit where it encourages players to loot and sell a cultists equipment, instead of purging it to prevent the spread of corruption.

Except for the bit where limited funds, to the point where monthly incomes don't provide enough for the acolytes to afford food at listed prices, make the acolytes easily bribed.

Need I go on ?

Still haven't seen a reason this system is in ANY WAY an improvement..

To me it's an improvement because it more accurately depicts the economic realities of my vision of the 40k setting. If you prefer to run it differently, there's not really anything I can say to give you a reason why it's an improvement for you. I can just explain what made me come around to actually preferring the new system.

Honestly, I don't really worry about it. If I didn't like the new system I'd just go right ahead and continue using Throne Gelt as a universal currency. We have plenty of book support for the old system.

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Player characters aren't a wandering band of murder hobos. They are working for the Inquisition. They shouldn't have to worry about such petty things like selling equipment. Though if it's really rare, they could give it away in exchange for a favor later (influence increase)

/Quote/

Players are what players want to be, the limiting factor should be in the narrative not the system. The 40k universe is immense and I will not tell my players not to explore it.

/Quote/

If you're going to play games where you aren't members of the Inquisitor, then the differences between the rules for Inquisition agents and whatever you want to play are your problem.

Though if you're playing pirates, why aren't you either playing Rogue Trader or playing in a different setting ?

/Quote/

They started as =I= but made some bad choices and are now on the run, trying to get out of the Imperium. They will most likely transition to Rogue Trader'ish rules and advances, just haven't gotten that far yet. However the Rogue trader monetary system will not be used as they are very poor and will have to barter and so on. Gathering valuables (metals, gems) is quite important for them.

/Quote/

That is not how the Imperium works. The Imperium works by telling each planet what it supplies in its tithe. Then, if a planet needs something, they ask the Imperium to provide it. The Adminstratum tries to match up needs to what each planet supplies.

As for those who do trade outside the tithing system, they don't trade currency. They trade goods and favors. Which is why Rogue Trader uses an Influence system.

Probably not the best way about it (though managing a banking system between star systems will not be easy given the communication options and how ignorant the average human is of the galaxy), but how often does the Imperium do anything the best way ?

/Quote/

This is not how the Imperium works? A lot of authors disagree, including the original DH rulebook. Merchant houses, trade guilds and so on. The way I do it is this. The Imperium prints paper money, Imperial Credits, which has a set value across the Imperium. Most hive worlds have adopted this currency. But some planets have their own currency (Gold crowns, copper commons, chits, painted sea shells etc.) and one of the duties of the administratum is to asses the value of the local currency compared to the set value of the Imperial Credit. When you travel or trade (interstellar) you exchange you local currency for Imperial Credits. no probs. Actually had a player carry around a bag of coloured stones because his character thought it was the local currency (And not childrens toys..lol)

/Quote/

1)Except for the bit where it doesn't make sense how you're switching currency from one planet to another.

2)Except for the bit where it implies you're working for the Inquisition part time, and money is somehow crossing the light years to get to you.

3)Except for the bit where it encourages players to loot and sell a cultists equipment, instead of purging it to prevent the spread of corruption.

4)Except for the bit where limited funds, to the point where monthly incomes don't provide enough for the acolytes to afford food at listed prices, make the acolytes easily bribed.

Need I go on ?

/Quote/

1) See Above

2) See Above and add an inquisition writ of authority to the administratum to gain acess to funds...

3)Looting is part of it.. spoils of war. However it will be hard to find a buyer for the torn bloody rags of cultist clothing... no problem

4) Grim isn't it =P Makes those choices harder. Morality or money, purity and corruption, you are sposed to walk the thin line. And bribing a throne agent..sounds like Roleplaying to me. Don't pull a system down over on this to prevent it... You just incourage a LACK of options...

Need you go on? I think you do, because I am utterly unconvinced

PS: Pardon for my english btw, not my first language.

Still haven't seen a reason this system is in ANY WAY an improvement..

To me it's an improvement because it more accurately depicts the economic realities of my vision of the 40k setting. If you prefer to run it differently, there's not really anything I can say to give you a reason why it's an improvement for you. I can just explain what made me come around to actually preferring the new system.

Honestly, I don't really worry about it. If I didn't like the new system I'd just go right ahead and continue using Throne Gelt as a universal currency. We have plenty of book support for the old system.

True, and I respect that. We all have our own versions of the universe (As GM's) and if it works, it works.

Players are what players want to be, the limiting factor should be in the narrative not the system. The 40k universe is immense and I will not tell my players not to explore it.

Players should, of course, be whatever it makes sense for them to ICly decide to be.

However, the question is how much the world around them supports them doing whatever they want. I've detailed this elsewhere, but to recap, the Imperium, at least in my vision of the setting, is largely a place where everyone has a role assigned to them at birth. "Congratulations, you'll be a scribe. You will sit at this desk and copy this book 'till you die." That sort of thing. Normal citizens don't go to stores and buy stuff (especially not guns). They have a home assigned to them. They have food and clothing provided for them. Being an outsider in that kind of world is really difficult, because the entire society isn't designed to accommodate 'visitors' who fall outside the established norm. There are no groceries. No motels. No bars (!!)

And then, of course, there are those individuals who can't conform. Society isn't prepared to handle these individuals at all (and probably doesn't even want to, since they are not productive members of society), so they are forced outside it. To live outside the cities, or beneath them. The undercity, so to speak. The black markets. This is probably where visiting PCs will have the easiest time fitting in.

Personally, I find that reducing the setting to "screw the Inquisition, let's go to the nearest night club and then hit the local Guns and Armor store in the morning to gear up." is doing the setting a disservice. IMHO. They players should absolutely be allowed to exist on the fringes of society if that's what they want (and really, being travelling Inquisition cronies, that's probably close to what they already do), but I think they should feel that the very structure of the Imperium has been designed to make that choice unattractive (from an in-game perspective of course). They can do what they want, but being outsiders is hard.

Anyway. That's just my personal interpretation, and why I've come to prefer the acquisition system.

And, as a disclaimer, it's worth adding that obviously every planet in the Imperium is bound to differ in more or less subtle ways. One planet might round up and force-labour all 'transients', while another might be a Tortuga-like safe haven for all sorts of scum and villainy. But I still find it helpful to have an idea what the "typical" Imperial world is like. Makes it easier to decide how a given world distinguishes itself.

Regarding the money vs. availability thing. It occurs to me that what we need is a simple availability to cost conversion ratio. Eclipse Phase has something like this because it has a lot of different societies that use different economic systems.

It can be different for every planet and is very simple to do. "This is an agri world that uses bricks of grox-dung for money +0 availability means 0-100 bricks, +10 means 101-500 bricks and because this is a backwards planet, really rare things +30, mean 10,000-20,000 bricks of grox-dung. And by the way, you're needed at the Royal Treasury right away."

It's easy, it leaves room for GM judgement and it can be done in 1-2 lines for any planet that uses money.

Slaunyeh

Can't argue with your interpretation of 40k and I will do nothing to belittle it. This is however not how I see it. I see trade (and money automatically following) as a basic human feature. How this is handled on different worlds is part of the "Strangeness" of a new world visited by the players and adds diversity. It's a dimmension of the universe which adds flavour.

Guess that's my take on it.

Regarding the money vs. availability thing. It occurs to me that what we need is a simple availability to cost conversion ratio. Eclipse Phase has something like this because it has a lot of different societies that use different economic systems.

It can be different for every planet and is very simple to do. "This is an agri world that uses bricks of grox-dung for money +0 availability means 0-100 bricks, +10 means 101-500 bricks and because this is a backwards planet, really rare things +30, mean 10,000-20,000 bricks of grox-dung. And by the way, you're needed at the Royal Treasury right away."

It's easy, it leaves room for GM judgement and it can be done in 1-2 lines for any planet that uses money.

This could actually work, or simply let a requisition system run parallel to a standard money system. Some things you buy (or get paid) other things you requisition.

Grox-dung bricks?! LOOL

Regarding the money vs. availability thing. It occurs to me that what we need is a simple availability to cost conversion ratio. Eclipse Phase has something like this because it has a lot of different societies that use different economic systems.

It can be different for every planet and is very simple to do. "This is an agri world that uses bricks of grox-dung for money +0 availability means 0-100 bricks, +10 means 101-500 bricks and because this is a backwards planet, really rare things +30, mean 10,000-20,000 bricks of grox-dung. And by the way, you're needed at the Royal Treasury right away."

It's easy, it leaves room for GM judgement and it can be done in 1-2 lines for any planet that uses money.

This could actually work, or simply let a requisition system run parallel to a standard money system. Some things you buy (or get paid) other things you requisition.

Grox-dung bricks?! LOOL

I'm glad you like it. The main thing is that the GM needs to know what is rare and common and to what degree. If the GM knows that, then whether it is grox-dung bricks on Olfactus Malleus IV or digi-credits on Youllneveraffordtolivehereicus VIII, the GM can just do quick and rough conversions to the local currency.

And if you want to keep "Thrones", then the availability just provides ranges for each availability category and minor variations within that range are just per the norm for somewhere like the Imperium.