If the Khorne Berzerker in Power Armour with his Astartes Power Axe in has hands charges towards you, you WILL want to have a plasma gun available to fire at him, and suddenly, the 10% seem very very acceptable.

As is now, the plasma gun is just better as everything.

I would prefer it over meltas, bolters (not to speak of SP and Lasers) in almost ANY situation.

It is too strong in damage AND Pen AND chance for RF and it has a good range and I can even overcharge it.

And its not even more rare than a bolter.

So why take anything else ?

A higher risk would balance this quite well. High benefit and high versatility, but at a price.

And honestly, everyone will keep this 1AP free to use it, if it overheats, so this is not the big deal either.

Yeah but that just cheapens the effect to the point it's trivial anyway, like I said. And your example is reasonable, but what are the odds you'll have a plasma gun ready in that situation, considering it's overkill and too high risk in other conditions?

Again, I dont think the risk is so high.

You have a 10% chance that you'll need to spent an additional 1 AP (which you need to spare until after you fired).

So you rarely have the danger of really getting damage, you should just have another weapon close to improvise.

With the rules as stated now, everyone of my characters will have a plasma gun.

Plasma Gun against heretics

Plasma Guns against Chaos Space Marines

Plasma Gun against cars

Even Plasma Gun against light tanks

Plasma Guns against Daemons

Even Plasma Guns against Squirrels - as this is the most effective weapon to kill them

I am ok with such a versatility on a very high level.

But as I said - it has to have a serious downside to balance this, and a plasma gun being risky also matches fluff.

The risk I proposed is even not THAT high as I explained.

No, I get that, the issue I'm raising is less with your point and more with the fact that the overheats quality is utterly toothless. 1 AP to drop the weapon means there's really NO risk to get hurt, unless you're incredibly silly with your AP use. There should be a test involved to drop the weapon on time, or we won't see any overheat based damage.

I'm not sure it's that harmless. I'd be happy to see it be a little more harsh (overheating on 91+ would be a good start - and I think it's ridiculous that you can attempt to Evade the damage if you choose not to drop the weapon), but it already brings up some decision making:

• I need to save AP to drop the gun, so I can't Aim/RoF as much - I might not be able to move to get line-of-sight, if the enemy is smart
• If I do save 1 AP to drop it, I then have no AP left for Evasion until my next turn
• If I survive until my next turn, I'm still stuck having to spend AP to ready a weapon, effectively making that turn worth less

That said, I still think the Penetration on both of them is way out of proportion.

I don't have my stuff with so I can't check myself, but what if the penalty isn't the the 1AP to drop it? What if the penalty is the AP needed to pick it up again or be without a weapon for until you can?

EDIT: ninja'd

Magnus said it better than I could.

I'd say around the 8-10 mark would be a good value for Pen. It's enough to render light power armour irrelevant, and probably put the hurt on a terminator, but vehicles can tank it relatively well.

As for the comments about the Overheats quality still being a burden, I can definitely see that, and you both have a very good point. My issue with it is it doesn't make the weapons feel dangerous. I feel like Plasma is really missing the point if you're not really at any risk of injury (assuming you're not reckless with AP expenditure).

I still think we're going too far. It shouldn't be an overheat-capable lascannon. It should be an elite infantry gun. It IS right now slightly too good, and my view is that it's paying too much for that privilege. A lot of overheat, getting slowed to a crawl AND costing high AP to fire, very limited, though not varied, ammunition... And somehow more common than a boltgun too?

The range shouldn't really drop, and the RoF is only this low because 1d10+12 was virtually guaranteed to at least cause significant damage. And yet with the current wound system, you're often better off with an overcharged hellgun. Two shots for 2AP at 1d10+9 Pen 4 each ain't bad: Averages 14 damage compared to the current Plasmagun because the minimum damage is that much higher.

The RoF when not overcharged could be 2/3: one shot for one AP, two shots for 3AP, representing that now you *are* wasting a moment waiting on it to fire once again. Overheat could apply when firing more than one shot per turn, or when firing on overcharge, with the 'low' single shot mode being when the weapon's safe.

Regarding Overheat: Overheat on 91+ was a huge issue in previous editions, particularly BC and Only War, where this actually started interfering with your ability to aim. Even a "Best Craftsmanship" automissed on 91+ even if you had the accuracy to still hit. Special weapon indeed, it belonged on the short bus.

RoF 1 2d10+5 would net us 16 average damage; just barely higher than an overcharged hellgun, with a good chance of RF. Ideally overheat would be a cumulative thing.

Say Overheat starts at 1d10+0 Pen 0. Every shot fired without letting it cool down by not firing a round adds +2 to Damage and Penetration. Every fifth such shot adds Blast[+1], as the weapon vents larger and larger gouts of superheated gasses. If the weapon Blast-Overheats, you either spend 2AP to toss it immediately out of blast range of the party, if there's room, or 1AP to either shield yourself OR those in the area from half the damage. You may trigger overheat yourself at any time once it reaches blast levels, with the above costs and results.

This way everyone can get increasingly nervous as they watch the weapon's muzzle slowly turn to a glowing red, while not quite willing to give it up because it hits like a truck at good range and quite possibly has been used 'Heroically' by the user when surrounded.

I like that a lot, actually.

The auto-jam was always problematic. The fact that a freshly loaded plasma gun could just magically expend its first shot of the day into your arm, for full damage, probably dropping you into the criticals when the weapon was worth having [bC; only war they're not really ever worth taking and even the mastery tax-talents for them only bring them up to where they should be before said talents] or just wasting turns and causing trouble otherwise meant that choosing the weapon was equal parts suicidal and equal parts wanting to be dead weight for two rounds at a time 10% of the time.

That was, after all, the main thing you lugged around.

I like that "building heat" idea a lot, Kiton. I'm a little nervous about yet-more book keeping, but it might not be so bad.

My favourite (non-fluff) thing about 40k RPGs so far has been the risk/reward system in psychic powers (though that quickly became reward/reward, but that's a different issue). Do you dare push it for increased effect?

Having to spend all your AP to get in range, or aim, leaving none to drop the gun, was a risk/reward thing in my mind, but it's probably true that the risk isn't great enough. It certainly wouldn't be with a 96+ Overheat, which is why I was pushing for 91+.

Your idea probably conveys the feeling better, Kiton. I'd be all over it if it weren't for the extra "resource" tracking.

I like that "building heat" idea a lot, Kiton. I'm a little nervous about yet-more book keeping, but it might not be so bad.

My favourite (non-fluff) thing about 40k RPGs so far has been the risk/reward system in psychic powers (though that quickly became reward/reward, but that's a different issue). Do you dare push it for increased effect?

Having to spend all your AP to get in range, or aim, leaving none to drop the gun, was a risk/reward thing in my mind, but it's probably true that the risk isn't great enough. It certainly wouldn't be with a 96+ Overheat, which is why I was pushing for 91+.

Your idea probably conveys the feeling better, Kiton. I'd be all over it if it weren't for the extra "resource" tracking.

I still support the 91+ idea very much. Easy to change and still a bearable risk.

With the Pen also slightly decreased, the weapon would be balanced and feel good regarding fluff

And please please please givt the Boltpistol RoF 1 and both Bolt Pistol & Gun Pen 3 each (or 4) instead of the lousy 2...

You gotta count a m mo used up anyways. Just put a tick with every shot. Even if you don't the other four people at the table are all probably counting for one reason or the other.

Instead here of the risk being that a tenth of the ti me your weapon is a failure, and still was a failure even when i m mune to overheating , when it DOES fail, it's either early on and not of any note ["I think his gun went 'pssh' when he started firing I guess; he looked annoyed and patted his sleeve down a few ti mes "] OR in longer "KEEP FIRING" situation and utterly devastating. By being directly related to getting a 'ja m' result, you at least keep the user's growing skill and fa miliarity with his finicky, unstable weapon in mind, which "Always 91+" utterly ignored.

Added bonus: If you're not feeling safe at all any more because the thing's white hot, blinking warnings across your optics and the ene my is al most upon you? , trigger the overheat yourself and toss it over the bloody sandbags. Now THAT is versatility.

ANother thought...would a good qualitiy Plasma gun lose the Overheat trait...? *shivers*

I'd suggest no; so long as high quality lowers the ja m rate, now that overheat is finally linked to it properly.

It's not as if the weapon explodes or takes up da mage.

In the Tabletop game currently plasma weapons are a high Strength, high AP, regular range for their category, expensive, and dangerous. With the AP to cut down any armor and the strength that spell instant death for most man sized units plasma is popular. This is balanced with its expense (take an extra Marine or a plasma gun) and a 1/6 chance of it trying to kill your trooper holding it. However the trooper can save his life by passing his armor save. Commonly plasma is used against heavy infantry and light vehicles even in its pistol form. Note the rules reflect the plasma gun being fired on maximal mode all the time.

That being said I think the Rouge Trader plasma weapon found the right balance in terms of realistic performance. Fired on a regular setting the gun has decent pen and damage but when charged it can overheat and hurt the user while increasing damage and pen, gaining the recharge rate, and going through more ammo. All of the advantages of the plasma weapons are balanced with long reload times and small clips. My players find it best to have a few plasma weapons along to deal with big enemies or other high priority targets but it doesn't replace their regular weapons.

Below this if a picture of a plasma pistol. The plasma is contained in a magnetic field generated in the blue region, this is where it is super heated from the ammunition source into the plasma state. When the gun begins to overheat this is the place where it fails and as the containment field breaks down in small temporary spots that can shoot jets of plasma out of it with the possibility of killing the user. This weapon is still able to be fired after it has cooled down and the field regains control of the plasma.

Those slots on the cowling by the barrel are emergency vents. Steam, dripping plasma etc, from that could be the cause of injury.

In 2nd Ed 40k/Necromunda the plasma gun, on minimal was better str than a bolter but with less range, and on maximum was very high str, same range, had a sustained fire dice (blast for chaos), and needed cooldown. 3rd Ed 40k onwards it seems that it was fire on maximum all the time.

In the TT rules a casualty does not necessarily mean dead, just too injured to fight (like a severely burnt arm) or dead

I would prefer if Plasma Weapons had high damage but lower penetration personally. I see it as the sheer damage caused by the weapon overwhelming the armour. I would prefer maybe (Damage: 2d10+6; Pene 3; Special: Overcharge (1d10), overheats)

Also Plasma Weapons should be rarer than their bolt equivalents, and maybe more than even Meltas. They are usually described as rare weapons. Up their rarity to -40 or -50.

I find the vents as a a way of venting regular excess heating gas instead of emergency ventilation.

As for mechanics I think balancing the plasma gun like it should be with high strength and high (or at least decent) pen with low clip size and long reload as I mentioned in my earlier comment as an exceptable balance along with the significant increased rarity as you suggested.