As it stands, plasma weapons aren't too awful. They're relatively balanced, all things considered. But they're also pretty damned dull. Similar to bolters, the weapons feel like they've lost their flavour for the sake of becoming balanced. I think this needs to change!

What we have to go on regarding plasma weapons is essentially the following;

• They're a lost technology. Most plasma weapons in service are ancient as can be, and the technology behind them is barely understood even by the Mechanicus.
• They give off a huge amount of heat, meaning the firer has to wait a while before firing them again.
• They tend to lose effectiveness over long range, due to the inaccurate nature of the projectile.
• They overheat quite easily, which can be catastrophic for the wielder.
• They're the go-to weapon for taking down light infantry.

Currently, they're high damage weapons with decent Pen. They overheat, and can be fired on overcharge settings. This isn't bad, but I think more could be done to make them stand out, and still stay balanced.

Here's a few changes I'd propose to make them a more interesting, fluff accurate weapon category;

1. Reduce their range. Currently. they're not too much worse than a boltgun, which plainly isn't true to the fluff. I'd change things to 90m for the plasma gun, and 40m for the pistol.
2. Bring back the recharge quality! Plasma needs to cool down, and this should definitely be represented. Every time a plasma gun is fired, it should take a turn to cool down before it can be fired again.
3. Make damage higher, but more random. These aren't solid projectiles, they're vulnerable to the whims of many environmental factors. Instead of the current 1d10+12 for plasma guns, I think it'd be better and more flavourful for them to deal 2d10+8. It's got significantly higher damage potential, but that's offset by the randomness, the recharge quality, and the risk of using the guns.
4. Change up the overheat quality slightly. Currently, you just have to spend 1AP to drop the gun if it overheats. I think that's being a little too kind. In my opinion, change it so that an Agility test is required to drop the weapon in time. As well, an overheat should reduce the weapon's status by one, as it's likely to damage internal components.
5. Plasma weapons are meant to be great at gunning down light infantry. To that end, I'd say giving them Felling would be appropriate.
6. There should be a penalty to repair tests to raise the item status of plasma weapons, due to their status as a lost technology. -10, or potentially even -20. This penalty could be negated by having Specialist (Adeptus Mechanicus)

These changes would make Plasma Guns much deadlier, especially against lightly armoured enemies, but provide enough drawbacks (maintenance cost, recharge, potential death by overheating) to make them a very risky investment. Much truer to the lore surrounding them, in my opinion.

Thoughts?

In my experience, a weapon with Recharge is a weapon nobody ever uses. It was pretty cool when Recharge was left for firing in Maximal mode in RT - that's literally the first time anyone in my group even considered using plasma weapons.

I think the issue there is it's not particularly enticing when paired with a pretty wimpy statline (which have plagued plasma weapons in FFG games for a **** long time). I mean, why take the plasma gun over a boltgun if the damage markup is pretty tiny? But I think 2d10+8 (2d10+10 when fired on Overcharge) is enough to entice people into using the weapon. You do have a very valid point, though.

I might be wrong, but I think there's something more to it than just the poor statline of plasma weapons (though that's definitely a huge issue).

It takes a specific kind of mind to accept a delayed payoff in a situation of immediate risk, even if the payoff is adequately better. Every turn your plasma gun recharges is a turn when you're not killing enemies, and the idea seems problematic considering that a) killing people is the default goal of most combat encounters and b) killing people is the best way to make sure they don't kill you or your pals instead. In most roleplaying games, outdamaging the enemy is the key to success, and sustaining a steady stream of damage is more intuitively helpful towards that goal than waiting for bursts of awesome damage, even if the math makes both options more or less equal.

On that note, it's really hard to make a Recharging weapon equal to a non-recharging weapon - all other factors being equal, it has to deal twice the damage to remain competitive at all! Admittedly, this should be less of a problem in the new system, where higher damage generally means a better chance of hitting a jackpot on the negative status effect lottery.

Today's update was definitely something. Plasma guns definitely got a lot more intriguing this time around. I'm still of the opinion they should be changed, but this is definitely interesting.

The 3d10 damage is a good move. Plasma should definitely feel random, and more dice means more potential for righteous fury, which is always good for such a deadly weapon. The pen is, honestly, kind of absurd though. Plasma is meant to be decent at getting through armour, but not THAT decent. As for overcharge damage being based on Int bonus, it's a pretty interesting idea. I like it! It makes them into a good weapon class for techpriests, which makes a lot of sense.

In terms of my ideas, I'd say most of them I'd still like to see. I definitely want recharge to be represented, because I feel like it's too integral to how the weapons function to be ignored. As well, felling should still be added, because they're a weapon that should be very good at taking down lightly armoured infantry. I'd include felling, but reduce Pen signficantly, down to 4 or 5. This makes them more of a specialist weapon, and not just the best choice you can make.

Optimally, every weapon category would be distinct enough to have a specific appeal and a decent set of strengths and weaknesses to set them apart. Changing pen and damage numbers isn't interesting.

On recharge: Until Dark Heresy plasma weapons were not dangerous and slow firing at the same time. In 1st edition 40k they just had a recharge time (2 whole turns!), and were no threat to the user. 2nd edition had the Imperial ones, with safety features, which had recharge but were safe, and the older chaos ones, with no safety features, which could be fired every turn but could be dangerous.

3rd edition onwards got rid of recharge (I imagine partly to reduce book keeping), but then made all plasma weapons dangerous.

It is only in 40k RPG that both have coexisted in the same weapon. From 2nd edition 40k onwards the whole point of the recharge is that is a safety measure to prevent overheating.

That's pretty interesting, and I actually had no idea. Thanks heaps for that, it'll help a lot, I'm currently in the midst of rewriting a lot of stuff pertaining to the armoury to get it more to my tastes.

Something tells me those penetration numbers are the AP2 we see against Terminator suits once they're available.

Truth be told If that's the case I'd rather lower it to 10/12 but add in Felling: A lot of "armor" is replaced by sickening amounts of bonus toughness in the current system.

Even then, it's an absurd value. By memory, that'd completely penetrate a DW terminator suit. Which, true, does reflect the tabletop, but the thing is this; would you rather be in Terminator armour, or naked, when facing down plasma? If the weapon can penetrate the armour value entirely, there's fundamentally no difference between the two, which is silly. Generally I think armour shouldn't be getting totally penetrated. One or two points should usually hang around, to represent the fact that armour is, ultimately, still worth wearing.

• They're the go-to weapon for taking down Heavy infantry.

Plasma is classicly ment to take down power armor or above, where are you getting the "goto weapon for taking down Light infantry"?

Yeah, that was a goof on my part, neglected to edit the topic. Chalk it up to too much time spent playing DH, with people toting around meltaguns to take down armoured enemies (which is fairly absurd).

Even then, it's an absurd value. By memory, that'd completely penetrate a DW terminator suit. Which, true, does reflect the tabletop, but the thing is this; would you rather be in Terminator armour, or naked, when facing down plasma? If the weapon can penetrate the armour value entirely, there's fundamentally no difference between the two, which is silly. Generally I think armour shouldn't be getting totally penetrated. One or two points should usually hang around, to represent the fact that armour is, ultimately, still worth wearing.

Well, that's assuming everyone will be tooting a plasma weapon. That power armour or Terminator armour will still shrugg off a lot of bullets and shrapnel.

Yeah, that was a goof on my part, neglected to edit the topic. Chalk it up to too much time spent playing DH, with people toting around meltaguns to take down armoured enemies (which is fairly absurd).

Isn't that the point of meltaguns?

Meltaguns are for taking out vehicles. Sure, you can use them against infantry, but it's akin to shooting a hive ganger with a rocket launcher. Slightly overkill. Plasma weapons can deal with terminator armour relatively comfortably.

Yes you are right but I wouldn't call it absurd to bring one along when expecting to face heavy infantry.

Not absurd, but generally plasma would make more sense, unless you expect to have to force your way through bulkheads or deal with tanks. Going by fluff, anyway. If we're going by rules, there's no reason NOT to take melta with you.

On recharge: Until Dark Heresy plasma weapons were not dangerous and slow firing at the same time. In 1st edition 40k they just had a recharge time (2 whole turns!), and were no threat to the user. 2nd edition had the Imperial ones, with safety features, which had recharge but were safe, and the older chaos ones, with no safety features, which could be fired every turn but could be dangerous.

3rd edition onwards got rid of recharge (I imagine partly to reduce book keeping), but then made all plasma weapons dangerous.

It is only in 40k RPG that both have coexisted in the same weapon. From 2nd edition 40k onwards the whole point of the recharge is that is a safety measure to prevent overheating.

Okay, revisiting this point. What do you guys think about this little weapon quality I just knocked up? It'd replace Overheats.

Plasma

Plasma weapons generate an extreme amount of heat, and require adequate time to cool between shots if the firer wishes to avoid some very deadly burns. To this end, plasma weapons are generally designed to be fired intermittently. When firing a weapon with the plasma quality, if the same weapon was fired on the previous turn, or if it is being fired multiple times within a single round, it temporarily gains both the Overheats and Unreliable qualities, for the sake of the current attack. This effectively means the weapon will overheat on a BS roll of 91-100.

Wording may be a little clumsy, but I think I got the point across.

Well you've certainly ruined that poor quality, now she'll have to drop out of school or something.

That aside:

Plasma is supposed to have roughly the same ranges as bolt and las weapons of the same size category. They are, to "basic" weaponry, what power weapons are to normal swords and spears. They actually should not overheat as often as the previous DH/RT/BC systems inflicted; no one would use that crap if you really had a ten percent chance to blow your arm off.

But, Boring is a danger. One we wanna fix. Things should be interesting.

Plasma is just a bit too random. 1d10+12 gives 13~22, average 17.5. 3d10 gives 3~30 average 16.5.

120m, 2d10+4 Pen 6 would give us 6~24 with average 15, with wide variance but not quite as much as 3d10.

Still gives increased RF chance, but not quite as much. Next, we put the base RoF at 1 and up the clip size back to 24

Rarity will be slightly more, rather than less, than bolters.

Now for the... I won't go so far as to say interesting. Slightly less boring part:

Plasma has variable AP settings. Each additional AP spent on firing also expends a point of ammunition as well.

Overcharge[int Bonus] is available if firing on 2AP or higher.

For 2AP, the weapon strikes 20m further, deals an additional 4 damage and 4 penetration

If fired on overcharge, a 3AP shot may be used instead, adding Blast[4], +2 Damage and 20m range, but automatically overheating it.

no one would use that crap if you really had a ten percent chance to blow your arm off.

The Imperial Guard disagree with you. Plasma gunners are generally considered suicidal. But again there is a distinct difference between the miniature game and the roleplaying game. Still, plasma guns should be random. You do not want to use a plasma gun, but sometimes when you are battling forces to terrible to to comprehend, you have to.

I think the way I've got it works pretty well. The plasma gun's profile is still pretty beastly even if you're only firing it every second turn. But people who want real damage output when it counts have to deal with the risk. It makes things more interesting than the usual.

no one would use that crap if you really had a ten percent chance to blow your arm off..

More importantly, and what has always bugged me about the plasmagun fluff, it makes no sense that these weapons are thousand of years old relics if they also have a 10% chance to violently self-destruct every time you pull the trigger.

But I do like linking the chance to overheat to a jam-style mechanic. Then you can always fate point it if you're fond of your arm!

I like the idea that overheating only occurs when you bypass the safety features to fire faster than the weapon is designed to handle. 2e fluff supports this.

no one would use that crap if you really had a ten percent chance to blow your arm off..

More importantly, and what has always bugged me about the plasmagun fluff, it makes no sense that these weapons are thousand of years old relics if they also have a 10% chance to violently self-destruct every time you pull the trigger.

Getting hurt by your own plasma gun does not mean that the gun is destroyed in a small super nova. It could as well mean that the gun ejects super heated steam and or plasma specifically do prevent a catastrophic failure. Sure, the ejected superheated steam and plasma might well mean loss of limb or life for the gunner but that's just collateral damage.

I think simply give them a overheat chance of 10% and put down the Pen to 6/8 (pistol/gun) and it would be ok.

Random damage on a high level with a certain risk and the Pen still would ignore Light Power Armour.

Regarding the issue that they should be able to get trough Terminator Armour:

A gun does not only damage the person inside an armour if it penetrates it completely - it also has its damage for that issue.

With a plasmagun having Pen 8 and 3d10 damage, you have in average 8+16,5, which means (Terminator armour in DH2 about 14 Armour ?), you would have 10,5 damage left in average for the person inside. Enough to give a wound to most people inside, with 3 dices RF is not rare either, so also a good chance for a critical wound.

Fair enough for a regular "human" plasma gun.

For sure, a plasma-cannon or a Astartes Plasmagun is another cup of tea...

I don't think anyone in their right mind will use a gun which has a 1/10 chance of blowing their arm off though, unreliable needs to be tied to a choice thing.

Well, then again, by RAW Overheat is painfully nice to players, so it's probably not too mean. I very much advocate a test to drop the gun on time though. Otherwise it's a laughable quality.