Hello everyone.

I followed the forums a long time, lurking quitely
But the chance to give some feedback to the beta, which could lead to a better version of this already awesome game, got me from my couch.

I would like to make a 10 things to improve list and, I would love it if you could comment on it, as I really highly appreciate your qualified oppionions.

I play several RPGs since about 2 decades, but no RPG ever got me like DH.
The only issue I have are some rule tweaks which yet would need to be made to lift the rule-system from a "good" to an "excellent"

Enough small talk - lets start:

1.) Problem: Single shots always lose in comparision to automatic fire
--> make degrees of success matter when firing a single bullet instead of several.
With several bullets, you get additional hits - with a single bullet you should get +1 damage on your hit and the target gets -5 to his evade-attempt. This could be used in a light version with only every 2 degrees of success or in a more effective version with every success. The shooter should be the one chosing the kind of Bonus (he either hit a more vulnerable area or predicted the targets movements better)
This would also help with Tanks that cant be wounded (those guys that already have armour 4+ and TB 7+ in the new system)
--> would be solved with the solution in problem 1 to increase damage by degrees of success
This could probably also improve the issue that Sniper Rifles cannot kill with a single hit.
Furthmore it will help with those guys that jump around so much that you cant hit them at all (Agility 70, Evade +30)
--> yeah, you still got that 5% chance at last, but thats not really a good option. The solution from 1 also can solve this by giving -5 per DoS on the defenders evade.
You could even consider this bonus also for automatic fire if your DoS exceed your RoF - but only for the first bullet to hit.
As I read in another thread on here, introducing into the wound table a range which gives no wound, but fatigue would be a very intesting option also (at Wound table scale 1-2 maybe, being extracted from step 1-6)

2.) Grenades detonate on impact
--> they could be made to detonate 1W5 phases in the initiative later. This could make interesting situations, like forcing somebody out of cover. To compensate for this, their damage could be
increased slightly.

3.) Why dont have Toxins an ongoing effect ?

4.) Why dont Unnatural senses beside sight (and maybe taste) decrease the penalty for fighting blindly or for limited view
--> would be realistic and more fun

5.) Perception has not enough influence on ranged combat
--> the PerB could be used to limit the recommended Bonus in 1.)
Lets say, max. + PerB or +PerB/2 (rounded up) ?

6.) Psykers should get 1 Fatigue per use of Focus psy Power

Psykers should get 1 Fatigue if pushing Psy Rating or if failing a Focus Power in general

7.) non-sanctioned psykers should get +2 on their warp phenomena throw.

8.) Psykers should get -5 on their Focus Power Test per Cybernetic they have

9.) Lower Talent cost to 200/350/500

10.) Make attributes cost: new Attribute Bonus*factor, not old one* factor

This changes should adress the major systematic problems from my point of view.

Hope to get a lot of feedback.
Maybe we can together work out at least 2-3 changes to recommend out of this.

Gonna adress some of your points:

1. This was basically a part of the accurate quality in DH1 - the possibility of getting higher damage with more DoS. No idea why they took it out, to be honest, so I definitely agree with you that something needs to be done with sniper weapons.

3. While weakened is a pretty powerful condition, the fact that it completely wears off after a single round does seem kind of weird. Maybe make it like bleeding, with the value of X decreasing by one every round.

4. Do you mean enhanced senses? Because unnatural senses already allows you to completely ignore blindness, smoke etc.

6. This would severely limit the use of psykers, possibly to the point of nobody wanting to play one anymore. While I agree with you that psykers in DH can use their powers somewhat freely, with only the risk of psychic phenomena holding them back, giving them fatigue with every cast would make them capable of using 2 or 3 powers in a fight (or indeed any given situation where sufficient rest afterwards is not available) and then being reduced to somebody with a gun they can't really use all that well.

One possible way to integrate this idea however would be to maybe give psykers one fatigue every time they push their psy level, possibly with greater inherent benefits for pushing as a balance.

7. Not sure about this. The 1d10+10 corruption you get for not being sanctioned is already pretty nasty, as it guarantees you start the game with a malignancy and are well on your way to the second. The sanctioning doesn't necessarily mean you have more control over your powers, it just means you have been taught how to properly use them instead of experimenting around on your own until you got it right - the corruption represents this experimental phase (in which quite a few things are likely to have gone wrong) pretty well, but other than that, the two should be on the same level of control now.

8. I don't see why. From a fluff perspective, there is no reason for psykers not to use bionics or any indication that it would limit their potential. While it is somewhat unfortunate that the mechanicus-specific implants (other than mechadendrites) aren't 'Mechanicus only' any more (which is an issue I feel should be adressed somehow), there is no reason not to allow psykers to use bionics, especially not the ones that replicate normaly bodily functions instead of adding new ones (a new leg, for instance).

I haven't really decided on the points costs, so I'll hold back from commenting on that for the moment.

Gonna adress some of your points:

1. This was basically a part of the accurate quality in DH1 - the possibility of getting higher damage with more DoS. No idea why they took it out, to be honest, so I definitely agree with you that something needs to be done with sniper weapons.

3. While weakened is a pretty powerful condition, the fact that it completely wears off after a single round does seem kind of weird. Maybe make it like bleeding, with the value of X decreasing by one every round.

4. Do you mean enhanced senses? Because unnatural senses already allows you to completely ignore blindness, smoke etc.

6. This would severely limit the use of psykers, possibly to the point of nobody wanting to play one anymore. While I agree with you that psykers in DH can use their powers somewhat freely, with only the risk of psychic phenomena holding them back, giving them fatigue with every cast would make them capable of using 2 or 3 powers in a fight (or indeed any given situation where sufficient rest afterwards is not available) and then being reduced to somebody with a gun they can't really use all that well.

One possible way to integrate this idea however would be to maybe give psykers one fatigue every time they push their psy level, possibly with greater inherent benefits for pushing as a balance.

7. Not sure about this. The 1d10+10 corruption you get for not being sanctioned is already pretty nasty, as it guarantees you start the game with a malignancy and are well on your way to the second. The sanctioning doesn't necessarily mean you have more control over your powers, it just means you have been taught how to properly use them instead of experimenting around on your own until you got it right - the corruption represents this experimental phase (in which quite a few things are likely to have gone wrong) pretty well, but other than that, the two should be on the same level of control now.

8. I don't see why. From a fluff perspective, there is no reason for psykers not to use bionics or any indication that it would limit their potential. While it is somewhat unfortunate that the mechanicus-specific implants (other than mechadendrites) aren't 'Mechanicus only' any more (which is an issue I feel should be adressed somehow), there is no reason not to allow psykers to use bionics, especially not the ones that replicate normaly bodily functions instead of adding new ones (a new leg, for instance).

I haven't really decided on the points costs, so I'll hold back from commenting on that for the moment.

I thought Weakened was just...there until treated. In the rules it just says 'suffers a penalty equal to -10 multiplied by X' and nothing about it disappearing after a turn. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I don't think so.

Weakened doesn't say anything, true, but the toxic weapon trait states the target gains the Weakened (X) condition for one round. If you get weakened from something else, all bets are off ^^

Weakened doesn't say anything, true, but the toxic weapon trait states the target gains the Weakened (X) condition for one round. If you get weakened from something else, all bets are off ^^

Ah, hadn't seen that. Ok, that does need to be fixed.

1. Was that ever part of Accurate ? In all the versions I saw it was only that lousy +15 instead of +10 with aiming.

Anyway I wouldnt limit a damage increase per DoS to accurate weapons, though it would of course benefit the mechanism indirectly to have an accurate weapon.

A good solution from my point of view would be to grant non-automatic shots (besides shotguns and similar) a bonus on damage with DoS, be it +1 damage per DoS or at least per 2 DoS.

An additional interesting option would be a -5 for evading such attacks, as they are aimed better (automatic weapons already indirectly have such a mechanism by needing to negate the multiple hits with several successes on evasion.

What about -5 on evading per DoS and +1 damage per 2 DoS - that would be a medium level wher everyone could go along with

And it would logically make sense I think.

I think this point is by far the most important to solve and i cant understand how this could remain unadressed for all the past lines

3. If the Weakened state would indeed stay until healed I would go along with it.

Otherwise it could also be seen as standard poison which can optionally be exchanged for more lethal ones

4. My fault - enhanced senses i mean. But this would be an issue by GM decision that not necessarily would need to be RAW

6. I understand you point...but I am afraid that Psyker in this open system could be OP if not limited in their powers.

There is no real limit to BS or WS for them, so they could as well fight regular like a warrior...also no tree that limits talent choices...

Maybe a fatigue only if pushed or if the focus test is failed ?

7. I think I could live with that as is...you win this point

8. If i remember correctly, at some chapters it was mentioned, that the mechanicus and psykers cannot be combined because psy and machine dont go so well along with each other...just an idea though, nothing game breaking in either way.

Regarding the costs:

- skills became more expensive, which is ok, as there are also less and more bundled ones

- attributes were too expensive in DH1 but now they became too cheap

- other way around with talents, they were too cheap but now they increased costs too dramatically

Attributes a little more expensive, talents a little cheaper, especially at the 2 upper tiers would be fine.

Bionics have never in 40k lore affected Psy powers - in fact there are a number of Hereteks who have devoted their lives to becoming Psykers, which would be pointless if they were then limited in their usage of powers. The other points are interesting - this one kind of ruins the others slightly.

Regarding accurate: In Dark Heresy 1st edition (and indeed all other games of the line), an accurate weapon would gain +d10 damage per 2 DoS when aiming, these additional d10 could however not generate righteous fury. As I've said, I don't see why they have taken this out.

Regarding psykers: While in theory it's true that a psyker could get the same amounts of WS/BS as well as the talents, the fact that they always have to also level up willpower and get the psychic powers makes this either ridiculously expensive or not very effective, since you'd end up with a jack-of-all-trades kind of character.

In the previous system, there was the rule that the total DoSs on the roll could be used as a replacement value for any single d10 rolled for damage on an attack. So a roll of a 2 and a 6 on a 2d10 damage attack could become a 7 and a 6 if the attacker had 7 DoSs. It didn't add damge though, merely replaced the die value.

I think its removed here in this system, because Evasion is now an opposed check to the attack. In other words, attacks will quite regularly have their DoSs reduced.

Indeed, I checked out on the sniper rule - it was not in my printed version, but I found it in the eratta

It is a good rule in general, but limited on accurate...

I also saw that the evade action is now comparative --> that means my -5 per DoS is already implemented and no longer needed - then the additioonal damage is left...

What would be the negative side of adding +1 damage per 2 DoS to single standard shots ?

In case of accurate you could add +1 damage per DoS (alternatively give back the old rule with 1d10 per 2 DoS)

Maybe I am too Shadowrun-driven with the cybernetic-psyker approach ;D

I got it, you wanna keep psykers as they are ;D

What about the grenade-delay and the attribute/talent costs ?

After this discusion is finished I would like to send the agreed issues to FFG (if they are not reading it here) as a input - I hope they really consider to have a look on it...

I like the idea of grenade delays, definitely, It adds a little bit more to track on the tabletop, but is that such a big issue? Might be worth including that you can spend an extra AP or two on the throw to have it still explode on impact. That way. it's a tactical choice.

Or you could have a delay of 1d10 and reduce or expand it with up to your Perception-Bonus for timing.

Would be fun to throw it behind the corner and watch the covards run...if none of them manages to grab and throw it back with an Ag(-20) Test before it explodes ;D

On #1/snipers; A prototypical sniper is highly trained, takes their time to set up a shot, and takes the target out with a single shot because they know how to aim very well; NOT just because the weapon is insta-kill in the hands of any schlub. So, the balance issue should be; what sort of damage number does the gun need so that a well-trained PC who takes 4 AP to shoot (Aim, Called Shot (head), 2 AP for attack) can take someone out? Well, a 29 is death but anything 22+ could represent a non-perfect hit. .So you're looking at Roll+Damage+Eye of Vengence (the well-trained part) = 25 or so on average.Which gives 20 before roll, and maybe 12 before Eye of Vengence, and 17 before defense (4 tough + 4 armor - 3 penetration). Damage is already +10, so maybe bump it to +15 and penetration to +5 and you're good.

Having said all that, I really have no problem with adding +1 damage/2 Dos or whatever. Its a perfectly reasonable fix. In order to not arbitrarily limit it to single-shot weapons, you could make it part of the Called Shot manouver. That way any weapon can do it, it just can't be done when you're spraying bullets around.

On #6 {psyker and fatigue): I think you should play through a couple psyker vs. warrior/desperado types before worrying about overpowered psykers. They really aren't (at least not in combat; outside, maybe). A starting PC can match the best psyker "weapons" at chargen with the right gun. So it really isn't OP. And no, they really can't be double-good with both the psyker and a regular weapon; that takes twice as much experience as any other combatant to achieve the same result. They got seriously nerfed from Edition 1 (no value judgement here; just reporting). But as I said, try it for yourself. Basically, most of the direct attack powers give you a nice pistol that never runs out of bullets and one special effect each. Interesting, but not close to the Desperado gunslinger wielding dual custom-gripped dum-dum loaded autoguns, which can achieve a whopping 8 tearing hits per round.

So, after your great feedback and professional additions, I would recommend the following considerations:

1.) Add +1 Damage per 2 DoS with the Called Shot Maneuvre; add +1 damage per 1 DoS instead if the weapon is accurate

2.) consider to lower the talent costs from 200/400/600 to 200/350/500

In return, increase attribute costs slightly, either

> new Attribute Bonus*factor, not old one* factor

OR

> give only +4 per increase instead of +5 to the attribute (indeed I would prefer this second option)

3.) give toxins an ongoing effect (not just 1 round, but needs to be healed)

4.) think about an (optional?) delay for grenade exploding (1W10 phases on the initiative track later, which can be reduced or enhanced by ones Perception Bonus)

Any more additions from your sides ?