RAW: characters are stuck with at least 5 Obligation.

Not quite.

RAW: Characters can never have less than 5 Obligation. There is a subtle - but important - difference in that.

Saying that there is some nebulous 5 point Obligation that lurks at the base of every character's existence is not RAW. No, telling your players that they have "Life Sucks: 5-point Obligation" is indeed a house rule.

Rather, it is the GM's job to make sure a character never manages to wipe his slate clean. That the process of working out that last 5 points of Obligation inveriably results in something else popping up to take its place.

They're actually quite exactly the same thing. No matter what, the PC can't ever *actually* pay off their Obligation pool in full. That doesn't mean that a PC couldn't pay off the last 5 points of their Debt Obligation, in cash or kind before something actually Obligation-worthy happens to come up to replace it. That means they have no more Debt, but they must still have 5 Obligation or more according to RAW.

Filling it in, for the time being, with 'Life Sucks: 5' is no different than immediately dropping 5 points of any other Obligation on them, except that it doesn't have one of the names in the Obligation table. (Hint: Those are only a list of suggestions anyway, not the full and complete list of possibilities.)

Additional thought on the matter:

You want your Wookiee to owe a lifedebt to another PC? Great. Awesome roleplaying potential. But no, it doesn't count as your character's obligation.

Why not? If it weren't for his life debt to Han, Chewbacca's life would be *so* much simpler. Because of that life debt, he's more or less permanently attached to every difficulty in Han's past, present, and future.

Not only that, but it's a great example of an Obligation that can't be paid down until something *permanent* happens. Chewbacca's life debt Obligation would only be paid down if Han (and Leia by later extension) dies, and maybe not even then. If Han dies in a way that *doesn't* fulfill Chewbacca's life debt, it doesn't go away, it gets converted to something else.

They're actually quite exactly the same thing.

I've already exlained why that is not the case.

Filling it in, for the time being, with 'Life Sucks: 5' is no different than immediately dropping 5 points of any other Obligation on them...

I again disagree. Doing it the way I suggest - or, dare I say, the rules indicate - means that there is a more organic flow. The character is having substantive results and consequences tied to his actions. Rather than just some generic "because you're still breathing" sword hanging over his bed that the GM at some point cuts the thread on.

Why not? If it weren't for his life debt to Han, Chewbacca's life would be *so* much simpler. Because of that life debt, he's more or less permanently attached to every difficulty in Han's past, present, and future.

Not only that, but it's a great example of an Obligation that can't be paid down until something *permanent* happens. Chewbacca's life debt Obligation would only be paid down if Han (and Leia by later extension) dies, and maybe not even then. If Han dies in a way that *doesn't* fulfill Chewbacca's life debt, it doesn't go away, it gets converted to something else.

Are you intenitionally not reading what I wrote? I clearly said the Wookiee can have a lifedebt with another PC. Of course he can. I even went on to say it makes for great RP opportunities. It's an obligation (lower case), just not an Obligation in the sense of the rules. Chewy does not have Obligation: life debt to Han. He has Motivation: life debt to Han.

Riddle me this: If it's an Obligation, how does the GM apply it to a session when it comes up on the Oblgation chart roll?

Not to mention your assertion that an Obligation should be classifiable as "can't be paid down". That too is not something the rules support. So tying something like that to a felow PC means he can't buy it down until another PC dies. Then what? He gets to wipe it off his sheet?

Maybe when it comes up on the Obligation roll it means Chewie is stressed because Han keeps leaving his dirty socks all over the Falcon and it's driving Chewie crazy but he can't do anything about it, because--life debt!

So, for you, all Obligation is useful for is to deal strain damage to everyone as the adventure starts? In that case, I see now where you are coming from. It makes much more sense for you and your group to use that as a viable house rule. Although there is still the issue of not ever being able to buy it down.

We tend to use Obligation more as a story-influencing mechanic as is suggested by the book. So for us it can't work that way.

Maybe the PCs need to go on a quest to install an automatic washing machine in the Falcon so Han can wash his socks and not leave them lying around.

Have fun with that. You play SW your way. We'll play it ours. Personally, my players would throw their dice at me if I told them that was the plot of the adventure for a session. But to each their own.

Maybe if it goes well they get a new washing machine droid that can travel with them, so Han can wash his socks at all times!

Or, like, Chewie is stressed because Han keeps forcing him to go grab snacks for him rather than getting up himself, because--life debt!

In each of your "because--life debt" examples (and because I want to ignore the silly washing machine stuff at this point), Motivation serves the same purpose. Even moreso. Since now, if Chewy plays along with this brutally annoying version of Han, he gets bonus XP at the end of the session for having to put up with the other player's rediculous shenanigans.

Because--Motivation: life debt.

Why not? If it weren't for his life debt to Han, Chewbacca's life would be *so* much simpler. Because of that life debt, he's more or less permanently attached to every difficulty in Han's past, present, and future.

Not only that, but it's a great example of an Obligation that can't be paid down until something *permanent* happens. Chewbacca's life debt Obligation would only be paid down if Han (and Leia by later extension) dies, and maybe not even then. If Han dies in a way that *doesn't* fulfill Chewbacca's life debt, it doesn't go away, it gets converted to something else.

Are you intenitionally not reading what I wrote? I clearly said the Wookiee can have a lifedebt with another PC. Of course he can. I even went on to say it makes for great RP opportunities. It's an obligation (lower case), just not an Obligation in the sense of the rules. Chewy does not have Obligation: life debt to Han. He has Motivation: life debt to Han.

Riddle me this: If it's an Obligation, how does the GM apply it to a session when it comes up on the Oblgation chart roll?

Not to mention your assertion that an Obligation should be classifiable as "can't be paid down". That too is not something the rules support. So tying something like that to a felow PC means he can't buy it down until another PC dies. Then what? He gets to wipe it off his sheet?

Yes, I read what you wrote. You don't seem to be reading what I wrote though, because your questions are mostly already answered in the post you responded to.

If Chewie's Life Debt Obligation comes up, then something related to that relationship occurs, which stresses Chewie (and possibly the rest of the crew). A good example is the chain of evens where Han gets frozen in carbonite, and then they have to go rescue him. In the mean time, Chewie has to make sure Leia stays safe. Or, it could just be something smaller, like having to deal with the aftermath of one of Han's many 'escapades'. Just as there are many options when someone's Debt Obligation comes up, there are many when an Oath (life debt) comes up. Just because you apparently don't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

There's all sorts of opportunities for Obligation that can't be paid down unless something drastic happens. (The statement I made was "can't be paid down until something *permanent* happens", not just "can't be paid down". Qualifying phrases are important to the meaning of a sentence.) Not everything is as simple as paying of a purely monetary debt. (And not all debts are monetary.) An Obligation of Duty to the Rebellion doesn't get paid off so easily until the Empire is out of power. An Obligation of Family may not be able to be paid off until something *big* and permanent happens.

Your question about what happens if the other PC dies in the scenario of a Life Debt Obligation was answered in my post. Try reading before reacting.

You've made the statement (and claim) that a PC can't have an Obligation to another PC. You haven't supported that statement with anything other than your own opinion that doing so is 'wrong' somehow.

In each of your "because--life debt" examples (and because I want to ignore the silly washing machine stuff at this point), Motivation serves the same purpose. Even moreso. Since now, if Chewy plays along with this brutally annoying version of Han, he gets bonus XP at the end of the session for having to put up with the other player's rediculous shenanigans.

Because--Motivation: life debt.

You've hit on something dead center, and utterly failed to notice it, all at the same time. Motivation and Obligation are two sides of the same coin. Motivation is what drives your character's choices. Obligation is what forces certain choices on your character, or forces them to live with the consequences.

If something can be a Motivation from one perspective, it can just as easily be an Obligation from another perspective. Which one is appropriate is very much dependent upon 'a certain point of view'.

A character can have a Family Motivation, and an Obligation of Duty to the Rebellion, or they can have an Obligation to their family, and be Motivated by the cause of the Rebellion. Which one is the Obligation, and which one is the Motivation depends *deeply* on how each one drives the circumstances of the character.

"Sorry, John, but you don't need to show up to the session this week. Turns out I rolled Chewy's Obligation: LIfe Debt. And since that's you, I'm going to have your PC frozen in carbonite for a while. Why don't you go see a movie or something that night. See you in a few weeks..."

That's why.

In each of your "because--life debt" examples (and because I want to ignore the silly washing machine stuff at this point), Motivation serves the same purpose. Even moreso. Since now, if Chewy plays along with this brutally annoying version of Han, he gets bonus XP at the end of the session for having to put up with the other player's rediculous shenanigans.

Because--Motivation: life debt.

OK, new example, Jabba the Hutt is marketing a new variety of Wookiee shampoo...

In each of your "because--life debt" examples (and because I want to ignore the silly washing machine stuff at this point), Motivation serves the same purpose. Even moreso. Since now, if Chewy plays along with this brutally annoying version of Han, he gets bonus XP at the end of the session for having to put up with the other player's rediculous shenanigans.

Because--Motivation: life debt.

You've hit on something dead center, and utterly failed to notice it, all at the same time. Motivation and Obligation are two sides of the same coin. Motivation is what drives your character's choices. Obligation is what forces certain choices on your character, or forces them to live with the consequences.

If something can be a Motivation from one perspective, it can just as easily be an Obligation from another perspective. Which one is appropriate is very much dependent upon 'a certain point of view'.

A character can have a Family Motivation, and an Obligation of Duty to the Rebellion, or they can have an Obligation to their family, and be Motivated by the cause of the Rebellion. Which one is the Obligation, and which one is the Motivation depends *deeply* on how each one drives the circumstances of the character.

This is actually a pretty interesting insight into the nature of Motivation and Obligation!

At least *something* of value came out of this thread

If something can be a Motivation from one perspective, it can just as easily be an Obligation from another perspective. Which one is appropriate is very much dependent upon 'a certain point of view'.

...or whether a PC is involved...

A character can have a Family Motivation, and an Obligation of Duty to the Rebellion, or they can have an Obligation to their family, and be Motivated by the cause of the Rebellion. Which one is the Obligation, and which one is the Motivation depends *deeply* on how each one drives the circumstances of the character.

And neither of those involve short-cutting the intent of the Obligation system by having it apply to a fellow PC.

I get it, you want to have a system in place to more easily excuse or remove Obligation. I just don't like it. And won't have it in my games.

YMMV.

"Sorry, John, but you don't need to show up to the session this week. Turns out I rolled Chewy's Obligation: LIfe Debt. And since that's you, I'm going to have your PC frozen in carbonite for a while. Why don't you go see a movie or something that night. See you in a few weeks..."

That's why.

Wow. You really don't get it, do you? Actually look at what happened in the movies. Han gets frozen in carbonite, there's a few scenes (the end of a session), and at the very start of the next session (Jedi), the party is involved in rescuing Han. In fact, he's up and about just a few encounters into Jedi. Sounds an awful lot like someone's Obligation came up, and the GM worked out a good way to build it into the plot. It seems like you've just assumed that because something happened to Han, it had to be *his* Obligation that came up, and not another PC's Obligation that is directly and innately tied to Han himself.

No. Han's Obligation came up. Not Chewy's. Chewy's motivation was then to rescue his friend to whom he's life bound.

If something can be a Motivation from one perspective, it can just as easily be an Obligation from another perspective. Which one is appropriate is very much dependent upon 'a certain point of view'.

...or whether a PC is involved...

A character can have a Family Motivation, and an Obligation of Duty to the Rebellion, or they can have an Obligation to their family, and be Motivated by the cause of the Rebellion. Which one is the Obligation, and which one is the Motivation depends *deeply* on how each one drives the circumstances of the character.

And neither of those involve short-cutting the intent of the Obligation system by having it apply to a fellow PC.

I get it, you want to have a system in place to more easily excuse or remove Obligation. I just don't like it. And won't have it in my games.

YMMV.

Yeah, you're actively not reading what I write. In one post you accuse me of breaking RAW because I'm suggesting that an Obligation can't be paid down easily, and now you're claiming that I want to 'short cut' Obligation by making it *easier* to get rid of. All based on the *exact* same scenario of having one PCs Obligation be innately tied to another PC.

No. Han's Obligation came up. Not Chewy's. Chewy's motivation was then to rescue his friend to whom he's life bound.

Could be. Could also be that Chewy had an Obligation to rescue his friend, because of the life debt. After all, it's not much of a life debt if you can get by just fine while the person to whom you *owe* that oath is a wall-decoration.

See: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/87808-getting-rid-of-obligation/?p=839053

That's why.

In one post you accuse me of breaking RAW because I'm suggesting that an Obligation can't be paid down easily...

Where did I say that?

i'm not getting into the middle of this weird argument, but I'll toss my 2 cents in. The way I interpreted the rules is that the PCs are always stuck with at least 5 obligation that can't be gotten rid of because: Scoundrels. They have presumably broken the law, made dealings that pissed someone off, got someone mad, stole something, bought or sold something that was not in someone's interest.

Even if it's not manifest into a single identifiable situation, the life they live means someone else is not happy with them. So, quite literally Life Sucks + 5.

I've read the conversation thus far, but that's what I'm sticking with because that's the way I read the rules. If it were another mechanic, I would expect it to be written as, "The GM should not allow a character's obligation to drop below 5. There are many ways to reintroduce obligation when it gets low...", whatever, whatever. That would be more clear if it was to be interpreted a different way.

So, a PC 'can't' have an Obligation that is innately tied to another PC because of a straw-man you made up?

Good argument. It's wrong at the core though, because the GM decides when and how Obligation can be paid down, and how much it is worth. If your player's proposed Favor Obligation *could* be paid down by shining shoes once (or even daily for a decade), it probably isn't worthy of being considered an Obligation, because there's not much (if any) room for such a Favor to drive drama. On the other hand, Chewbacca's Oath (life debt) to Han can't be paid down so easily, and does have the potential to be an Obligation.

Favor (polish shoes) isn't much of an Obligation, any more than Oath (say hello at least once), Duty (pay that 5 credit parking fee), Family (make sure your brother gets on the school bus), or Betrayal (forgot to send the Emperor a gift card on his birthday). As such, the GM shouldn't give, or let a player pick, those as an Obligation in the first place.