How does it work in the story? Your buddy, who decided to 'call it even' for nothing, gets a visit from one of Jabba's bounty hunters, who expresses Jabba's 'disappointment' that you've chosen not to pay the money he owes, and that Jabba *knows* he had the opportunity to do so.

Bwahaha. So Jabba is eavesdropping on a private conversation being had by 2 PC's on their own ship in the middle of space? He's truly an awesome crime lord indeed! What omnipotent powah!!!

Yeah, sure. That's the only way Jabba could *ever* find out that an associated of one of his debtors just came into a load of credits. Because the one PC just conjured the credits out of thin air.

Of course, we're back to what I said earlier. If the 'obligation' can be hand-waved away, then it wasn't an Obligation in the first place. Unfortunately, all your attempts to refute my point have relied on claiming that the Obligation can be hand waved away. But the only supporting argument you've used on that relies on having a bunch of metagaming douchebags as players. (originally your words, not mine)

But the only supporting argument you've used on that relies on having a bunch of metagaming douchebags as players. (originally your words, not mine) .

I want to start here because that is an outright blatant lie, sir. And you should be ashamed. You now have zero credibility. Zero. Tisk. Tisk.

Yeah, sure. That's the only way Jabba could *ever* find out that an associated of one of his debtors just came into a load of credits. Because the one PC just conjured the credits out of thin air.

Of course, we're back to what I said earlier. If the 'obligation' can be hand-waved away, then it wasn't an Obligation in the first place. Unfortunately, all your attempts to refute my point have relied on claiming that the Obligation can be hand waved away.

Now for the rest...

The whole reason we (you, actually) moved the discussion over to Debt is because you could not refute my glaring points surrounding things such as owing a Favor to another PC as an Obligation. And how absolutely ludicrous and meritless such a thing would be. A GM has no method of regulating or policing an Obligation such as that. The fact that you ran from it so quickly, screaming, "What about the money?!" says volumes.

Sigh. But at this point, because of your tanked credibility and propensity for deception, fallacy and ad hominem, I see no reason to take you at all seriously until you correct your egregious behavior.

Yeah, sure. That's the only way Jabba could *ever* find out that an associated of one of his debtors just came into a load of credits. Because the one PC just conjured the credits out of thin air.

Of course, we're back to what I said earlier. If the 'obligation' can be hand-waved away, then it wasn't an Obligation in the first place. Unfortunately, all your attempts to refute my point have relied on claiming that the Obligation can be hand waved away. But the only supporting argument you've used on that relies on having a bunch of metagaming douchebags as players. (originally your words, not mine)

Seriously? Are you that intellectually dishonest that you would lie about things you said in the SAME THREAD you said them in???

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/87808-getting-rid-of-obligation/?p=841149

You were the one that straight up insulted his group, then claimed it wasn't an insult, argued on and on about the definitions of fallacies you *clearly* don't understand, called someone *else* argumentative that was actually trying to further the conversation, and finalized it with a straight up bold faced lie. What a piece of work.

I think your Ignore list has just increased another point.

Yeah, sure. That's the only way Jabba could *ever* find out that an associated of one of his debtors just came into a load of credits. Because the one PC just conjured the credits out of thin air.

Of course, we're back to what I said earlier. If the 'obligation' can be hand-waved away, then it wasn't an Obligation in the first place. Unfortunately, all your attempts to refute my point have relied on claiming that the Obligation can be hand waved away. But the only supporting argument you've used on that relies on having a bunch of metagaming douchebags as players. (originally your words, not mine)

Seriously? Are you that intellectually dishonest that you would lie about things you said in the SAME THREAD you said them in???

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/87808-getting-rid-of-obligation/?p=841149

You were the one that straight up insulted his group, then claimed it wasn't an insult, argued on and on about the definitions of fallacies you *clearly* don't understand, called someone *else* argumentative that was actually trying to further the conversation, and finalized it with a straight up bold faced lie. What a piece of work.

I think your Ignore list has just increased another point.

It would actually be your ignore list, as you'd be adding him onto the list in your profile. That said, I applaud your decision.

This is my first time putting anyone on Ignore. But it is done.

It would actually be your ignore list, as you'd be adding him onto the list in your profile. That said, I applaud your decision.

A fair point made I was meaning, I would be adding my name to the number of people that have ignored him.

It would actually be your ignore list, as you'd be adding him onto the list in your profile. That said, I applaud your decision.

This is my first time putting anyone on Ignore. But it is done.

Same here... I rarely on any board, actually go so far as to ignore someone (in settings vs spirit).

But the only supporting argument you've used on that relies on having a bunch of metagaming douchebags as players. (originally your words, not mine) .

I want to start here because that is an outright blatant lie, sir. And you should be ashamed. You now have zero credibility. Zero. Tisk. Tisk.

You know what? You're right. Not about it being a *lie*, which requires intent to decieve, but about me being incorrect. It was such an innate requirement of all your attempts to 'debunk' or 'refute' my point, which you've repeatedly attempted by cherry-picking partial statements, and ignoring important, and explicitly stated requirements and conditions, and constructing straw-men which *clearly* don't meet those explicitly stated requirements and conditions, that several pages later, I simply assumed it was you who used the term first. I should have gone back and verified it. That was my bad.

I wish you luck in the real world if this is how you discuss topics with adults. You'll need it.

Yeah, sure. That's the only way Jabba could *ever* find out that an associated of one of his debtors just came into a load of credits. Because the one PC just conjured the credits out of thin air.

Of course, we're back to what I said earlier. If the 'obligation' can be hand-waved away, then it wasn't an Obligation in the first place. Unfortunately, all your attempts to refute my point have relied on claiming that the Obligation can be hand waved away.

Now for the rest...

The whole reason we (you, actually) moved the discussion over to Debt is because you could not refute my glaring points surrounding things such as owing a Favor to another PC as an Obligation. And how absolutely ludicrous and meritless such a thing would be. A GM has no method of regulating or policing an Obligation such as that. The fact that you ran from it so quickly, screaming, "What about the money?!" says volumes.

Sigh. But at this point, because of your tanked credibility and propensity for deception, fallacy and ad hominem, I see no reason to take you at all seriously until you correct your egregious behavior.

And you've *once again* attributed malicious or dishonest intent, to the same action which I initially explained my *actual* intent, and have previously *reiterated* that your *claimed* intent was not my *actual* intent.

I moved to a monetary debt Obligation for one *and only one* reason. It's easier to discuss the Obligation *rank* associated with such a debt, than it is to discuss the rank of something less concrete. Once we established that, yes, *under appropriate conditions* a PC could have a Debt Obligation to another PC, the discussion of what Rank such an Obligation might take for a given amount owed, as compared to the rank the same Debt to a Crime Lord might take. Because, not all Obligations are created equal. For example, a Debt to a legitimate bank would be worth less Obligation than the same amount owed to a crime lord, simply because of the level of impact such a debt would have, and the sorts of resources which might be brought to bear if the debt were to be ignored or otherwise left unpaid for too long.

But I guess this is all a moot point, since you claim to have added me to your block list.

I think it would be easier to just not allow EVERYONE to take out identical "I owe a PC the same amount of money that they owe someone else" Obligation than it would be to never allow obligation to be to another PC. XD. I don't think extreme metagame cases should be the norm when considering what to let your PCs do.

But, I mean, do what you want obviously. XD. I probably won't even address this until someone specifically wants to do something involving it.

I think it would be easier to just not allow EVERYONE to take out identical "I owe a PC the same amount of money that they owe someone else" Obligation than it would be to never allow obligation to be to another PC. XD. I don't think extreme metagame cases should be the norm when considering what to let your PCs do.

But, I mean, do what you want obviously. XD. I probably won't even address this until someone specifically wants to do something involving it.

I agree completely.

If it were me, I don't think I'd allow Obligation between players. Sure, there can be debts owed, favors owed, oaths made between players, but they are not Obligation as defined by the game.

IMO, Obligation is related to infamy. How burdened you are by society at large and by the powers-at-be. If I owe a fellow PC a life debt, that does nothing to increase our infamy or our debt (whether monetary or otherwise) to someone in power (ie - a hutt or Moff).

PCs can owe each other anything (life debt, money), but it doesn't make sense to ME to have those things affect Obligation, which is a much larger concept at play.

If it were me, I don't think I'd allow Obligation between players. Sure, there can be debts owed, favors owed, oaths made between players, but they are not Obligation as defined by the game.

IMO, Obligation is related to infamy. How burdened you are by society at large and by the powers-at-be. If I owe a fellow PC a life debt, that does nothing to increase our infamy or our debt (whether monetary or otherwise) to someone in power (ie - a hutt or Moff).

PCs can owe each other anything (life debt, money), but it doesn't make sense to ME to have those things affect Obligation, which is a much larger concept at play.

Excellent points, Rookhelm. Well said.

If it were me, I don't think I'd allow Obligation between players. Sure, there can be debts owed, favors owed, oaths made between players, but they are not Obligation as defined by the game.

IMO, Obligation is related to infamy. How burdened you are by society at large and by the powers-at-be. If I owe a fellow PC a life debt, that does nothing to increase our infamy or our debt (whether monetary or otherwise) to someone in power (ie - a hutt or Moff).

PCs can owe each other anything (life debt, money), but it doesn't make sense to ME to have those things affect Obligation, which is a much larger concept at play.

There are so many aspects of the game that generally break the rules if your obligation is to another player, that I honestly think it is just better off not allowed, as the rules themselves specify. Obligation is to external forces, not your buddy that you play sabacc with.