Hi,

Little question.

If I use DtF and KR to reduce the cost of a Destroyer (Devastator or one DSST), can the cost be 0 or is it limited to 1 regarding KR limitation ?

Thank for your answers !

Yamaël

It'll be a minimum of 1. Keep in mind that Deploy the Fleet has to be used one damage at a time as an action before you play the Devastator while Kuat is an interrupt that alters the cost while you are in the process of playing it. So you could use a couple of copies of Deploy the Fleet to drop the cost to 0, but if you haven't already dropped the cost to 0, Kuat cannot be used to do that.

Tru dat.

Similar thing came up the other day. A guy played admirals orders and had needa on the table. He played the 5 cost ship and discarded 1 to kuat to make it free. I was pretty sure that wouldnt work since orders and needa affected the cost before he could use kuat but he insisted and it was just an Octgn game so i let it go. Im pretty sure i am right in thinking needa makes the cost 3 and the admirals orders will make it 1 before you even attempt to play it making kuat unusable.

Similar thing came up the other day. A guy played admirals orders and had needa on the table. He played the 5 cost ship and discarded 1 to kuat to make it free. I was pretty sure that wouldnt work since orders and needa affected the cost before he could use kuat but he insisted and it was just an Octgn game so i let it go. Im pretty sure i am right in thinking needa makes the cost 3 and the admirals orders will make it 1 before you even attempt to play it making kuat unusable.

Similar thing came up the other day. A guy played admirals orders and had needa on the table. He played the 5 cost ship and discarded 1 to kuat to make it free. I was pretty sure that wouldnt work since orders and needa affected the cost before he could use kuat but he insisted and it was just an Octgn game so i let it go. Im pretty sure i am right in thinking needa makes the cost 3 and the admirals orders will make it 1 before you even attempt to play it making kuat unusable.

Like dbmeboy said, Kuat Reinforcements is an interrupt that triggers when you playing a vehicle. So you can't use Kuat to get a vehicle for 0 cost.

Here's the FAQ text :

E ffect Resolution

When a player wishes to play a card, take an action, or

initiate an interrupt or reaction effect, he first declares

his intent. The following steps are then observed, in

order:

1) Check play restrictions: can the card be played, or

the effect initiated, at this time?

2) Determine the cost (or costs, if multiple costs are

required) to play the card or initiate the ef fect.

3) Apply any modifiers to the cost.

4) Pay the cost(s).

5) Choose target(s), if applicable.

6) The card is played, or the effect resolves.

If any of the above steps would make the triggering

condition of an Interrupt effect true, that effect may be

initiated when that triggering condition becomes true.

If any of the above steps would make the triggering

condition of a Reaction effect true, that effect may be

initiated just after the triggering condition becomes

true.

Could you tell me where the KR interrupt and the DtF effect would be placed in this sequence ?

Thx.

This sequence occurs for each effect. But it's kind of irrelevant to the question you originally asked. The sequence explanation I think you're after is this, which shows the differentiation between actions (DtF) and interrupts (KR):

Deployment phase starts.

Your action - execute DtF effect to reduce next Capital Ship deployment by 1

Opp action - pass

Your action - execute DtF effect (future deployment now reduced by 2)

Opp action - pass

Your action - execute DtF effect (future deployment now reduced by 3)

Opp action - pass

Your action - declare action to play Capital ship from your hand at cost less 3

Interrupts to this action: you execute KR effect. KR can only be played when you play a vehicle unit, and not on other actions like DtF, because that's what its timing clause dictates (discard a card to reduce cost by another 1). If the cost is already at 1, it would have no effect, because the KR effect can't reduce cost to 0, it can only reduce down to a minimum cost of 1. No other interrupts executed by either party, so carry on.

Execute action - deploy 5 cost Capital Ship at cost of 1 (less 3 per DtF effect, less 1 per KR)

Reactions to deployment action - none

(The play action and all it's interrupts and reactions are now fully resolved; carry on)

Opp Action - pass

Your action - deploy another unit maybe ...

And so on.

This sequence occurs for each effect. But it's kind of irrelevant to the question you originally asked. The sequence explanation I think you're after is this, which shows the differentiation between actions (DtF) and interrupts (KR):

Deployment phase starts.

Your action - execute DtF effect to reduce next Capital Ship deployment by 1

Opp action - pass

Your action - execute DtF effect (future deployment now reduced by 2)

Opp action - pass

Your action - execute DtF effect (future deployment now reduced by 3)

Opp action - pass

Your action - declare action to play Capital ship from your hand at cost less 3

Interrupts to this action: you execute KR effect. KR can only be played when you play a vehicle unit, and not on other actions like DtF, because that's what its timing clause dictates (discard a card to reduce cost by another 1). If the cost is already at 1, it would have no effect, because the KR effect can't reduce cost to 0, it can only reduce down to a minimum cost of 1. No other interrupts executed by either party, so carry on.

Execute action - deploy 5 cost Capital Ship at cost of 1 (less 3 per DtF effect, less 1 per KR)

Reactions to deployment action - none

(The play action and all it's interrupts and reactions are now fully resolved; carry on)

Opp Action - pass

Your action - deploy another unit maybe ...

And so on.

Excellent and clear explanation.

For information, here's my conversation with FFG_Nate :

Me :

Could you confirm that the following analsis is correct ?

I have DtF (clear) and KR on the board and 6 cards (including Devastator) in my hand.

I use DtF's action (1 dmg and next Capital Ship -1).

I let my opponent do an action.

I use DtF on more time (2 dmgs and next Capital Ship -2).

I let my opponent do another action.

I use DtF for the 3rd time (3 dmgs and next Capital Ship -3).

Opponent action.

I wish to play Devastator, so I put it on the board from my hand. Then, I use the KR interrupt and discard 3 cards to reduce its cost. Once this done, I apply the FAQ's process.

1) Can I play my ship : OK.

2) Determine the cost : 6 resources, nothing else.

3) Apply the modifiers : First KR (Cost = 3) then the lasting effect from DtF (Cost = 0). If two things would apply at the same time, I can choose the order.

4) Pay the cost : 0.

5) No targets.

6) My Destroyer is played.

Have I understood ? Or is there something that I'm missing ?

Thanks in advance.

Yamaël

Nate :

You can use Deploy the Fleet 3 times to reduce the cost by 3, and then use Kuat Reinforcements and discard 3 cards to reduce by 3 more when you play the unit, for a total reduction of 6 resources.

Which is exactly what everyone was saying.

Which is exactly what everyone was saying.

Actually, if you look closely, it's not. The response from Nate says that between Kuat and Deploy he can deploy it for free, whereas the previous explanations, including yours, were saying you could not reduce it to zero with Kuat.

That seems a strange ruling, because at face value the cost has already been reduced to 3 via actions before the card is played, as in you know the cost is 3 before you play the card, hence the Determine Cost should be setting it at 3, before interrupts modify the cost. I might explore that a bit further offline.

That ruling makes no sense at all. Kuat says minimum of 1.

Nate's ruling here is that all cost modifiers (constants, actions, interrupts) are applied to the printed cost in step 3, so the ruling is consistent with that belief (as you can apply modifiers in any order). The problem is that it seems to contradict FAQ 2.9, which we understood to say that the cost is already modified down to 3 before it's played. Anyway, the issue's been raised - there'll either be a change to the ruling or an update to the FAQ, one way or the other :-)

That ruling makes no sense at all. Kuat says minimum of 1.

Yes, but Deploy the Fleet doesn't, and you get to decide what order to apply them regardless of what order they were activated. So, first, 6 (base cost) - 3 (KR x3) = 3, which is still greater than or equal to 1 so KR is cool with it, then, 3 - 3 (DtF x3) = 0, which DtF doesn't care about (and KR no longer gets a say at this point). Not saying I agree with it mind you, just that that's the reasoning.

The problem is that DtF should already be applied at step 2 as section 2.9 of the FAQ states that the game state continually checks for such modifiers.

That ruling seems a little fishy to me. I would like to see the exact, ver batim, question and answer.

The idea behind this is that DtF acts like "reducers" in AGoT. You pay the cost for the action (kneel, focus, damage, discard, etc), then it is in effect until either the phase ends, or its conditions are met.

By this, you could damage DtF 3 times, then continue to play other units/enhancements and pay resources for in play abilities. No matter what you play this phase, as long as it's not a Capital Ship , then the reduction is still in place until you actually play a Capital Ship.

Now, continuing the above scenario, you have damaged DtF, and then played a tie fighter with aft plating (or whatever the exact title of the shielding vehicle enhancement is). You now have 4 cards in hand and one of them is a 6 cost Capital Ship... we'll say it's The Devastator... when you play it... since, according to the rules book, you are supposed to reveal/place the card you intend to play first, before you pay for it... you have the chance to trigger KR, since its cost to play is 3 at the moment and 3>1.

You discard cards from your hand to reduce the cost of The Devastator... but wait... KR says that you can only reduce the cost down to a minimum of one, so, while you can discard 3 cards to reduce the cost of The Devastator by 3, KR still makes you pay 1, since it has a minimum set into it.

Edit: I'll preempt questions on another scenario.

Let's say you have 6+ captured cards at an almost dead Jabba's Reach, and a full hand.

You could damage Deploy the Fleet 4 times, and discard all cards in your hand except The Executor (cost 8 for thsoe that haven't read the news articles) for Kuat Reinforcements, and you would still have to pay the minimum of 1 resource, no matter how much you reduced the cost of the vehicle using KR.

Posting from phone so I can't copy-paste full text, but I do have confirmation from Nate that he made a mistake because he forgot about the "minimum 1" line on Kuat.

From Nate:

Ahh, yes. I answered a question about whether or not the two effects can be used in conjunction with one another. I overlooked the "to a minimum of 1" on Kuat Reinforcements. The reduction can only go down to cost 1.

And then further clarification:

Going one step further with this. Using a card with a built in minimum on it, like Kuat Reinforcements, implants that minimum regardless of the order.

That's a great clarification and I'm sure will be useful in the future. Thanks Dbmeboy.

We'll probably see a line about minimum/maximum values in the next FAQ.

From Nate:

Ahh, yes. I answered a question about whether or not the two effects can be used in conjunction with one another. I overlooked the "to a minimum of 1" on Kuat Reinforcements. The reduction can only go down to cost 1.

Just an error in what I thought was being asked, and because the card text was not in front of me when I replied.

And then further clarification:

Going one step further with this. Using a card with a built in minimum on it, like Kuat Reinforcements, implants that minimum regardless of the order.

For instance, if I used Kuat Reinforcements once, it does 2 things: reduces the cost by 1, and implants a minimum of 1 as the absolute lowest that card's cost can be reduced to.

If I had another, theoretical reducer that was an interrupt, that said something like "Reduce the cost of the card by 8," I could use it, but the "minimum of 1" would still be in effect, and I could not reduce any further.

So the question of what comes first is moot, if any of the effects have planted a minimum, it must be observed.

I agree with the whole timing interpretation that other reducers are in effect before Kuat's interrupt, but I don't think the card is saying that it could not be further reduced to zero by some later (not-currently-in-existence) interrupt reducer.

Well, since that's Nate's call and not yours, the card is saying that.

From Nate:

Ahh, yes. I answered a question about whether or not the two effects can be used in conjunction with one another. I overlooked the "to a minimum of 1" on Kuat Reinforcements. The reduction can only go down to cost 1.

Just an error in what I thought was being asked, and because the card text was not in front of me when I replied.

And then further clarification:

Going one step further with this. Using a card with a built in minimum on it, like Kuat Reinforcements, implants that minimum regardless of the order.

For instance, if I used Kuat Reinforcements once, it does 2 things: reduces the cost by 1, and implants a minimum of 1 as the absolute lowest that card's cost can be reduced to.

If I had another, theoretical reducer that was an interrupt, that said something like "Reduce the cost of the card by 8," I could use it, but the "minimum of 1" would still be in effect, and I could not reduce any further.

So the question of what comes first is moot, if any of the effects have planted a minimum, it must be observed.

I agree with the whole timing interpretation that other reducers are in effect before Kuat's interrupt, but I don't think the card is saying that it could not be further reduced to zero by some later (not-currently-in-existence) interrupt reducer.

except it is. once you use Kuat Reinforcements, there is an imposed minimum that the cost can be reduced to, no matter what you might be able to reduce it with during the same window... besides, it's an interrupt to playing it, so, the vehicle is already out of your hand and at the calculating costs step of the framework. Currently, this and its Rebel Alliance counterpart, The Defense of Yavin 4, are the only cards that reduce the cost at this step. After the interrupt, you finish counting needed resources, you pay the cost, and the unit/enhancement/event is considered played.

Well, since that's Nate's call and not yours, the card is saying that.

Well sorry for participating.