I'd be interested in hearing people's views on this.

Could the art and general graphical presentation of the game be moderated slightly, to be a bit less violent and, well, sexist?

It's not a big issue (honestly), but I'd like to see Dark Heresy appealing to a slightly maturer mindset - with a few less gargantuan guns and chainsaws on display, and a few more female characters represented. It would also help if those females that are occasionally represented didn't all look they had just come from an S&M party...

In terms of female representation, check out the Only War books, there's been good effort to include a decent amount of reasonably designed, female soldiers. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if this new book goes in the same direction.

Gargantuan guns and chainsaws are kind of par for course with 40k though, for better or worse.

Gargantuan guns and chainsaws are kind of par for course with 40k though, for better or worse.

I accept this to a degree, although I am suggesting they could still be toned down a little. Dark Heresy is an investigative game, rather than just combat, so some emphasis on characters doing non-combat investigation would be nice. When 1st edition came around, I read the blurb - thought of a kind of Call of Cthulhu in space game in my mind - and was slightly put off when I saw the front cover. It just looked a little too adolescent - with all the big guns etc.

I am just relating to my first impressions, I need to add, and as I said before I am not trying to be heavy handed in this argument. I would just like to see a slight attempt at presenting the image of the game through a mildly adjusted lens.

Yeah, I actually totally agree. It's worth saying there's a bit of a more healthy balance with recent books, and there seems to be more of a push for realistic appearances, instead of John Blanche-esque absurdity.

In order to have some dissent - I disagree and would like more Blanchesque absurdity instead of some bland attempt at whatever realism in the 41st millennium is supposed to be. I want skulls, half-metal faces, glamrock hairdos, fat little angels, the whole shebang!

It's mostly the absurd art style more than the actual elements that make up the image. I want my skulls, headtubes, silly cherub servitors and all that jazz. Just not all ridiculously oversized and deformed looking. I love the direction the art is going in more recent books (Hammer of The Emperor was great)

I think the art in the FFG books is of an incredibly high quality. The only flaw is that some amazing pieces of work seem to be reduced down to quarter page spreads, reducing their impact. (Maybe a reason to buy digital versions over print versions, though?)

As for sexism, I must admit I hadn't noticed this in recent works. It's true that there were a lot of female acolytes/assassins in shiny syn-skin to start with, but a lot of the early art was reproduced from GW originals, so the source material is more to blame there. I'm happy to endorse moving away from sexualised violent imagery, though. (Albeit to purely asexual violent imagery. This IS 40k after all. Plus I just like violence.)

I concur with Bomster, John Blanche and his very distinct art style (I think somebody once called it "gothic punk") are one of the main reasons I love 40k's background so much - his pictures in their Hieronymus Bosch kind of style really evoke a feeling of a dark future where all hope is almost lost - without that feeling, it's just another sci-fi background.

I'd be interested in hearing people's views on this.

Could the art and general graphical presentation of the game be moderated slightly, to be a bit less violent and, well, sexist?

It's not a big issue (honestly), but I'd like to see Dark Heresy appealing to a slightly maturer mindset - with a few less gargantuan guns and chainsaws on display, and a few more female characters represented. It would also help if those females that are occasionally represented didn't all look they had just come from an S&M party...

Just as a caveat, I"d like to say that in the followin comment I will be slightly rude, but not in an attempt to offend you at all, just for humour. That said:

ARE YOU INSANE?

This is Warhammer, a game that define the Grimdark trope, about an insane theocracy that worships an undead emperor who feeds on souls, in which the characters played are zealot servers of the bastard psychotic descendants of Torquemada.

The main weapons of this regime are rocket launcher rifles and combat-fit chainsaws.

Except for the legions of redshirts who use barelly-functioning laser rifles, and are mainly canon-fodder.

Humanity is doomed to a slow death by asfixiation due to it's insane regime and will, unless something major, eventually be eaten by Dark gods, giving birth to another eldritch abomination.

Those are the darkest, most violent times of mankind.

This is the game where the only kind of kill is overkill.

It is a violent, sexist game because the Imperium itself is a violent, sexist place. I'm not saying it is right, but it is what it is. and that is a main part of the setting. I don't know how watering it down or downplaying it would in any way improve it.

Actually, it's frequently stated that the imperium doesn't care one bit what gender you are, you're expendable human material anyways...so I wouldn't exactly call the background itself sexist or misogynist, it's really more misanthropic in general ^^

I'd be interested in hearing people's views on this.

Could the art and general graphical presentation of the game be moderated slightly, to be a bit less violent and, well, sexist?

It's not a big issue (honestly), but I'd like to see Dark Heresy appealing to a slightly maturer mindset - with a few less gargantuan guns and chainsaws on display, and a few more female characters represented. It would also help if those females that are occasionally represented didn't all look they had just come from an S&M party...

*snip*

It is a violent, sexist game because the Imperium itself is a violent, sexist place. I'm not saying it is right, but it is what it is. and that is a main part of the setting. I don't know how watering it down or downplaying it would in any way improve it.

Couple things here. One, where are you getting that the Imperium is a sexist place? All of the lore I've seen says humans are too badly needed for the meatgrinder of war to worry about which reproductive bits they have.

Secondly, the Imperium is a work of fiction, entirely malleable to whoever's writing for it. It need not be sexist just because "it is what it is." FFG is creating a product for sale and demeaning 50% of the public serves no economic purpose whatsoever. Sexism in RPGs is a big problem (our culture in general, but that's another issue), a concern not to be dismissed with "well, that's just how it is". Where is your head at that "watering down" sexism in fiction is a bad thing?

I will say I agree with most of the posters in the thread that FFG has done a pretty good job with what they have. The OW book has some good illustrations of female soldiers. I would like to see fewer assassins in bondage skin-suits, but as someone else pointed out most of those were inherited from GW.

I have to say I have actually been rather irritated by some of the more recent artwork (not necessarily that so far seen for Dark Heresy 2). The style has seemed rather... cartoony, with odd proportions, and trying to look dynamic, but actually coming across as static. The worst example of this has to be the "Here's my teddy" dreadnought from the Rights of Battle Book, but many of the regiment drawings from Only War seem to be similar (possibly the same artist).

The projected cover for Dark Heresy 2 looks promising though. As much as I like Dark Heresy I was never much keen on its cover.

In any case, I have a feeling that this is a non-issue:

I am going to attempt to find the exact quote, seeing as "I read somewhere" isn't exactly the best of references, but I believe that the art in this game is going to be pre-used.

I don't think we'll be seeing any new Art, but that's just me. I won't be holding my breath.

That seems like an odd choice, considering FFG have been commissioning art for all their recent books; why wouldn't they for an entirely new edition?

My sources are likely not very reliable,like my memory- I don't know why I posted at all: a wise man once said, if you've nothing useful to say, say nothing.

Ultimately, I won't be surprised if the Art for this book is reused.Whereas a new book presents the opportunity to use new art for new material that may not be drawn yet, the general content of this book exists already in the previous edition.

Heck, even the previous edition had Art that was reused from book to book. Sections of arts that were cut up in two, and used in two separate places... The art maybe nice, but I was a bit surprised when I saw the majority of it was also taken from the "Inquisitor" game.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot of new art, purely because recent FFG efforts seem to be trying to go for a more cohesive, consistent aesthetic artwork wise, even considering the art is done by multiple unrelated individuals. The original DH book was kind of a mess of reused art from different GW properties and had nothing of the same aesthetic FFG seem to push for now.

Blanche's completely mad art (and art that draws inspiration from it) is one of my favorite parts of 40k. I'd like a healthy mix if that along with characters that look a bit more believable; the OW art has been good for that.

tl;dr both are good, neither is superior.

I just wanna say that I'm really impressed by how level-headed most of these responses have been. I'd agree that the 40k line has its issues with sexism and violence. I've not really noticed a lot of cheesecake drawings so much as being somewhat more exclusive of women in the art and fiction. Given the more asexual approach of 40k, I see no reason to not just do even splits of male And female characters. Just look at the soviet army/country in World War II to see some awesome examples of how women and men are likely seen in the Imperium (especially later in the war when the men and women had gotten more used to fighting alongside each other. There was a strange kind of equality in that "everyone is a tool in the machine of the country." I don't really agree that the setting should be sexist at its core. The xenophobia/treatment of mutants is already a weird analogue of real world things without bringing in actual sexism. If someone wants to add it to their game, more power to them, but I don't consider it to be intrinsic to the core of the setting.

As far as the violence goes, I agree that 40k is a messed up setting in that respect. But that IS a part of the setting, and IS intrinsic to it. Is it kind of weird and unhealthy to be playing as racist, xenophobic, space fascists brutally murdering people in a setting that has had most of its irony and tongue in cheek nature eroded over the years? Yes, it is probably weird and somewhat unhealthy. I enjoy it, though, and its fun to sometimes play the bad guy, just like its fun to play the good guy in a bad guy setting, or to play an antihero. Just don't go overboard with it, don't make other people uncomfortable youre playing with, and be willing to admit that, yeah, there are some weird themes going on in this setting and have a good sense of humor about it.

As for the first poster, I can feel you on the changes you want. If you want this to be investigation in a scifi dystopia with eldritch horrors but without the ultra violence, I think your best bet is to just manually take out the ultra violence. It's funny because the ultra violence was originally in this setting to be humorously over the top, but as its started to get less tongue on cheek, I think that reason has even forgotten and it has become a bit more of a celebration of violence/confusing over the top for grim and gritty. But, nothing to stop me from playing up the black humor more in the games I run.

I just wanna say that I'm really impressed by how level-headed most of these responses have been.

That actually goes for pretty much all of this forum, I'm surprised this kind of mature debate even exists on the internet ^^

One thing about the art: I hope to see as little repeated images from previous books (both FFG's own and GW's) as possible, ideally none. I swear to the undying God-Emperor, if I see that damned cybernetic vitruvian man again...

I just wanna say that I'm really impressed by how level-headed most of these responses have been.

That actually goes for pretty much all of this forum, I'm surprised this kind of mature debate even exists on the internet ^^

This is indeed a very rare and very refreshing characteristic of this forum.

I'd be interested in hearing people's views on this.

Could the art and general graphical presentation of the game be moderated slightly, to be a bit less violent and, well, sexist?

It's not a big issue (honestly), but I'd like to see Dark Heresy appealing to a slightly maturer mindset - with a few less gargantuan guns and chainsaws on display, and a few more female characters represented. It would also help if those females that are occasionally represented didn't all look they had just come from an S&M party...

I would just like to point out that while I agree in part with this, warhammer 40k was created to be extremely over the top and out of scale.

Regarding sexism, I would say that Warhammer has the strange distinction of being capable of sexism in both ways.

The Imperium is a huge entity, with millions of planets, most of them unpleasant on the extreme.

So, there are some planets with feudal societies that treat women as cattle, at the same time that you can have a jungle world with amazon warriors.

The Ecclesiarchy has the odd effect of having women warriors (which would seem, in a very shallow way, feminist) clad in fetish-inspired power armor, or only with scrolls and piercings.

And then, of course, with have the Space Marines...

I would say that I very much agree with Pentregarth:

Actually, it's frequently stated that the imperium doesn't care one bit what gender you are, you're expendable human material anyways...so I wouldn't exactly call the background itself sexist or misogynist, it's really more misanthropic in general ^^

Krieg comes tom mind as an example of this, with their mixed regiments and baby bearing genetically modified "brood mothers".

While we're at it, I'll just leave this here:

http://pinterest.com/vulcansukhoi/warhammer-40k-art/

https://www.facebook.com/The.Art.of.Warhammer.40000

From a fluff perspective it's fine, yeah, but it's not a great idea to ignore how problematic some of the more gratuitous 40k artwork can be, especially considering the majority of the males are, conversely, clad in a couple of inches of metal around their entire bodies.

FFG really are on top of their game with this lately though, the only place they really seem to over-sexualise women is where the Games Workshop designs themselves kind of necessitate it (Sisters Repentia). There's much less needless cheesecake in 40kRPGs than there is in say, Pathfinder.