LOL!! Oh you got burned!!!

Good times.

Oh yea and matt kohls did not rotate.

Fiddlestix said:

You'd know all about that wouldn't you Fiddlestix *WInk * *Wink*

And goddamit Air is the best symbol. Screw Order!

I hate you Bloodrunstrue, you smell of cheese!

On topic, I think we have established that no symbol shows true dominance anymore, which I believe is an excellent development. We just need those boosts to the lower orders, then the game will run more like a fine swiss watch!

tannerface said:

I thought they reprinted him with a 4-point shuriken because of having to errata him?

MegaGeese said:

Masakazu Sugimori - Pursuit (Cornered)

Seong-Mina is so terribly underestimated right now.

failed2k said:

Beyond her capabilities to iSpin twice, even.

Cascade said:

i forgot. mat kohls didn't rotate.

Mmk, coupla things to respond to...

"Akuma, hes NO where to be found since B3 started. I dont think he should be in this tier.
Zi Mei, read above, replace he with she."

Right, and when did B3 actually start?

Exactly.

When Akuma came out, he was the first incarnation people considered "true" to his character. His R being the meat of the deck, was basically a free -4. A free unblockable attack, or ditch your opponent's attack. He had access to Seclusion, which only made him that much more stupid. Finally, his First E, while generally only usable on your own turn, was a hyper TYPFG. Akuma, trash? Hogwash. Akuma has topped almost every major event since his release, and any deck not packing Destiny sees Akuma as one of the most annoying characters ever. I think Zi Mei's been covered now.

"Mai? Really has she ever placed in a major...well ever?"

Top 8 at Worlds is probably a good start...

Mai has loops. She has free life gain (and very good at that). Mostly, though, she has a built in Unorthodox Style. Yeah...that's kinda, uh, awesome. By merely having momentum, her discard pile is at her fingertips. She may not have actually WON anything, but she's still top tier none the less. Much like Akuma, she's one of the most annoying, pesky characters ever made.

"Seong Mina, one placing at a regional that I'm aware off, could be wrong. Much stronger characters than her. Seong-Mina would be beast if she were a 6/26 or something. As lovely as that Form is, a five handsize can't build fast enough to compete."

Anybody who has actually built her can tell you you're wrong. Have you ever considered the fact she can Tag Along twice in one turn (or more per copy) off both Order and Water? She can Ira Spinta twice? Shadow Blade, pick up, Shadow Blade? She has a lot of versatility, and dude, our game doesn't need building speed. I had a Water Mi-Na, and here's how her turns went.

Shadow Blade
Pick up
Shadow Blade
Shadow Blade
F with Defender
Feline Spike
enhance with Natural Leader, GG

Sophitia's looping shenanigans are stupid. Like a Barack Obama 120 bowling score, or the special olympics. That stupid.

"Sophie, read Mai."

Sophie is the new Athena, simple version. More, she's arguably the best character to run Anti K and Forethough with due to her proclivity on draw power, and matching Chaos and Order with the two.

"I really laugh at the fact that hanzo isn't in this top list."

Anybody who says Hanzo Kick is top tier is ignorant, and I had to take on Matt Kohls to prove this. Matt Kohls told me to build Hanzo Kick, when Addes Syndicate was still legal, keep in mind, with an all Evil defensive wall of negation and awesome, and with Fei Long's Kick. I built it, and yes, it did go undefeated. But will it ever win? No. It won't, and I told Matt and others this. I told him that running a deck with only 4 attacks won't ever work, AT LEAST, not in the way Hanzo kick worked. Hanzo, as a char, is great; if your attack deals damage, holy s, it's GONE! Basically free card pool. But that's all he has going for him, lawl.

"oh, and no one mentioned that *Gill*, **Guy**, ***Nagase***, and Ryu-9 are low tier on that list?"

Gill - The Universal Fighter with an 8 handsize? Need I say more?

Guy - Pure overrated. Anybody who has played against Guy knows that his only skill was OMG Tsunami Sabre abuse, which uh, this is a block 3 tier list. Of course, I played Tsunami Sabre Guy, and honestly, it was nothing short of mediocre.

Ryu 9 - He's fun, he's cool, but he's no Alex, and that's saying pretty much everything. I hate All, but I think any Alex player will tell you Alex is better than Ryu, and thus, no point in even running him.

"Plus I'm likeing to see that Raph :: is 'middle' and not less xD"

Raphael is immensely competitive, especially when Shinobi used to be around. His whole reverse Deceptive Look? The dog is beastin, but until Feline Spike gets banned, there are better chars that can use Feline (although he does a helluva good job, not gonna lie).

"MegaGeese’s Phoenix Wright Stuff "

OK, do I think Alex is Rick Astley tier? No. I think Alex the king of being overrated. He's a lot like Transformers the movie: everybody talked about how it was the greatest thing ever made, expect in reality, Transformers the movie sucked balls, and is one of the worst films ever made. Cohesion? Background? Explanations? Nah...what moviegoer cares about those?

*personal rant*

However, I know how a tier list is made. A tier list is made of empirical and statistical evidence of a character performing extremely well over and over again. Alex has done that, that's why he's in Rick Astley. My friend had a nubby Alex. As in, he was running Neck Choke and Deceptive Look.

Yeah

And even that horrible, horrible, 20 turn build was still annoying as Hell trying to wade through his handsize and life gain.

So, do I think he's amazing? No, screw him; like I said, he ain't no Donovan. But, the guys' done really well. He's proven himself, just, not to me.

MarcoPulleaux said:

I dont disagree with everything you said(I think Akuma is terrible underatted right now in particular), but the things I did disagree with I was nearly completely baffled by.

If you don't think hanzo kick is top tier-ish then the ignorance is yours and no one elses so you can spare the know-it-all-and-if-you-disagree-you-are-wrong tone.

Gill the best statistical char in the block that happens to have the best symbol in the block low tier? Guy, a portion of the Team Worlds winning team in Block 2 bad? Alex with all of his success and his ridiculous card advantage overatted? Give me a break, he was consistantly the second best deck of block 2, making the top 4 in every card winning event in 2008?

Overratted? Really?

Not seeing these things AT ALL.

I'll respond merely on the back of me drinking.

Start with Akuma, Ok so every tournament right now is block, has been since gulf coast so thats when b3 started.
And you clearly contradict yourself later when you say "were" talking block 3.
Under the radar? maybe. But right now I dont think he has the tools to be top tier right now.

Mai didn't top 8 at worlds, try again.
Again shes not terrible, but in my eyes shes not top tier.

Seong Mina dies horridly to a single brt on her attack? Granted order has the card draw to compensate for a 5hs, but 7hs does it better and faster.

Sophie, again better chaos / order characters. Why bother redrawing when you have bigger they are and aquakensis?

Jeremy got hanzo right. I second his statement.

Now I'm not saying your wrong. Its your opinion, there is no right or wrong on opinions except when its facts. But you shouldn't speak so matter-o-factly about your opinions.

my 2 cents. Gill is not statistically the best character with order, Gen is, but that being said they both have thier advantages.

Also tiers based on characters are silly. It's not about the character, it's abou the character, the deck, the symbols, the cardpool, the match ups, and the players.

While Shinji has spoken a bit too matter-of-factly, other people in the thread have done so as well. While I don't agree with him, please don't only point just him out.

I was just making a point, Shinji - there was a contradiction in the testimony, if you will =P

I personally don't like Alex. But while I'm not a fantastic player, I am good enough to know that he's very, very good. Just like Sakura.

I'd put up more debate but too tired.

Hanzo:

I already said this once, so I'll resay it, and not another time. I know firsthand about Hanzo. Not from playing against him a billion times; from USING him a billion times. In fact, I learned about Hanzo because I wanted to prove to Matt Kohls that Hanzo Kick sucks, and after building the deck and going undefeated 4 tournies in a row, I can still say, with confidence, that Hanzo Kick does suck. Hanzo isn't a bad character, and as I just said, Hanzo Kick is capable of winsauce, but really, it's a high risk high reward deck, and really, any deck that has a risk rate of over 50 shouldn't be ran IMO.

Gill:

Has no effect. If you want to keep up this shenanigans of LIEK LAWLZ ORDER SYMBOL + 8 HANDSIZE, then be my guest, but a character without an effect is just another Rikuo.

Guy:

You guys seem to be mistaking "overrated" with "bad". I don't think **Guy** is bad; I've lost plenty of times to LAWLTSUNAMISABRE. But that's all he got, and it cycled. Got it? Good.

Akuma:

Nfxon, our argument is pretty much done here, because it's clear you and I won't agree. His R is enough to warrant him at least middle tier status. It so happens he's a 7/20 with Evil, and has exclusive access to Seclusion. To each their own I suppose.

Mai:

She top 8'd something. I want to say it was where Hata won his first character card with **Ibuki**. Either way, she has better life gain than Sakura IMO, but more importantly, she has an ability that can basically add your discard pile to your hand. Built-in Unorthodox Style? Yeah...that's kinda amazing. Rick Astley tier? Maybe not, but at least high tier.

Seong Mi-Na:

If you disagree, you haven't built her. Seong Mi-Na loops attacks more easily than any other character to date, and she doesn't need infinite loop shenanigans. Like I said, her deck needs very little attacks so long as you're abusing her F with Tag Along and Defender. I'm using empirical, real-life experience. If you've never built or played Seong Mi-Na, then to paraphrase Barack Obama, "you need to learn about what you're talking about before you open your mouth." Not trying to be rude, but Seong Mi-Na isn't up for debate. Not by a long shot.

Sophitia:

Point taken, but she was Rick Astley tier upon release. I'll agree, Aquakinesis made any O/V/W character much more viable. Still, she's decent enough in that, while Aqua may net you 1 card (at the cost of a commit per copy, btw) and TBTA getting 1-2, Sophitia only commits herself to draw up to 6.

MegaGeese:

I don't really call it a contradiction; it's more of a paradox. Like I said, I think people need to quit crying over the fact that All isn't in the top 4 and just move on. My symbol (Good) has never been in the top 4, and likely won't ever be, but I continue to have fun running Good and supporting it, even though it's rivaled with Life for least supported symbol in the game. Alex is good. He's a challenge to beat, and a worthy fighter and character. But seriously, people need to stop clammoring that he's great sauce. His 3 best tools, Addes, Revitalize, and CSS, are all banned. Not saying the guy has nothing, but block 3, he has 3 very, very low tier symbols, and while he may debatably be All or Fire's posterboy, he's still going to have trouble finding room to compete in the metagame, ESPECIALLY since people are likely to be running MAC.

Marco you seem like someone who won't back down on his statements but just in case I will combat your statement on Guy. Yes Tsunami Sabre was great for him but he is FAR from bad in block 3. Off order he can easily fuel the momentum requirements for Kazuryu Reppa and Lunar Slash without having Lord of the Makai in play. You can use his ability to stuff 3 cards in your momentum, throw Reppa redraw the lost cards and throw lunar slash out. Of course this a best case scenario situation but not having to rely on a foundation to fuel momentum is sometimes a good thing. His ability allows him to use some of orders cards that have momentum costs such as lunar slash. Try building an order build with him sometime though I am sure if it does work you will have a reason as to why it is still not good.

Here's my only problem with what you just mentioned: Lord of the Makai is still very much legal, and as such, I COULD build a deck without Lord of the Makai, using **Guy**, OR, I could build a deck WITH Lord of the Makai and a better Order candidate, and something tells me I'd fair a lot better with the latter.

Come the impending ban of Lord of the Makai (unless Set 12 has rampant momentum hate and punishment), then yes, I'll likely hop to a **Guy** Order deck basically stealing your idea. However, with Lord of the Makai still omnipresent, I just don't really care.

I concede when concession is proper. When nfxon pointed out Aquakinesis, it reminded me that, yeah, Aquakinesis' existence does make Sophitia look a lot less attractive, so I admitted, and said she's at least high tier due to her free refill.

Your example does make Guy look more handy, but your whole point is that "Guy doesn't need Lord of the Makai to be awesome", and my whole point is "that's true, but Order decks running Lord of the Makai probably overshadow Guy by a LONG SHOT."

As much as I hate to say it, Defender is the official crutch for Order and Chaos victories as it currently stands, and Donovan is pretty much the king of block 3, in that he isn't bannable, but hot **** the guy has like 0 flaws.

Unfortunatley for you shinji you think all characters suck so there really isn't a better order character for you. Also as for the gill plus order thing, I called it the Hewitt theory as in scientific theory. Thats all it is, a theory and it has only been proven one time in a major event, by major I mean a worlds event. Order decks also have other kills besides looping with defender or victor-e, they just arn't as easy to do so they are played less and if they win are usually put off as luck, which very well may be the case or they could just be beyond the genral population.

By the way I don't understand why you ever changed your name since it takes about two sentences to realize who you are.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Gill JUST won a regional that featured 7 players that either already have their face on a card or has their face on a card coming out, along with 3 or 4 other phenominal major event success players. Ignoring him or discrediting him now is just plain being contrary.

The risk/reward on Hanzokick is not nearly what you put it at, the deck just plain old works, sure it doesnt win every game, but right now no deck in the format does, go fiugre.

And I love me some Ben, but Seong-Mina isn't quite as vunerable as advertised, its a awnsers to awnsers game for sure, which you'd think shed struggle at, but if you get your numbers right and you have a few tricks, she works wonders.

tannerface said:

...I think all characters suck? Do you mean All as in the resource symbol, or all as in every. Clearly I don't think every character sucks, or else, who the Hell am I supposed to use? o_O

Order does have ways of killing that aren't named Defender; you're right! Of course, I didn't say Order could only kill with Defender, did I? I said that Defender is the number 1 kill method in Order decks as of right now, with Kuzuryu and Lunar Slash closely behind it. Heck, in Block 2, even with Defender legal, I prefered Moon Sault Slayer.

Also, there's absolutely no need to input personal slander. New forum, new name, that simple. I'm proud of my Internet status; ever since STG, everyone's wanted me banned, and it'll never happen since I've yet to do anything banworthy, so to me, I feel like I've accomplished something =D

About Gill

Gill sucks dude. He does. Gill is in the exact same league as Kyoshiro: health, handsize, and Order. Both of them have 0 abilities. As characters, they suck. Hard. It's the sheer fact that Order is STUPID right now and they have the handsize. But what do their characters do, hmm? What good is Gill off Good, or Kyoshiro off Chaos?

Seriously, as characters, THEY. ARE. BALLLLLLLLS

The only reason they even see play is because they have a green of 7/8, a red cross of 20, and a shiny pair of scales.

You guys need to grow some intelligence, and quickly. When I say the character sucks, I mean as a whole. You look at their stats, then their symbol distribution, then their effects, character-onlies, etc, and start to calculate and formulate.

Right now, Order, Chaos, Water, Air, and Good have no skill. They don't, and don't say they do. Defender and Feline Spike get rid of any thought required in a deck. You COULD build deck A, that has this this this and this, a nice, 16 attack line-up or so...

or, you could run your Defender/Feline, both have consistantly shown their top tier status over and over again, and end up winning left and right as they've done to this point.

I haven't seen the Gill deck, nor do I want to. Know why? Because something tells me the deck has nothing to do with Gill being named Gill (as in, Seraphic Wing) or the fact that he can gain vitality. No, something tells me it has to do purely with his handsize and Scales. That's it.

You expect me to think he's a good character because he's The Universal Fighter with a bigger handsize? Hell no dude. Hell, F, no.

MarcoPulleaux said:

some clarity:

hata's first character card - *James Hata* - was won in Nats 07 with Cassandra***. the mai we speak of did not release until 08.

at worlds 08, when Hata won with ::ibuki::, i don't believe a mai made top 8, or 16. pretty certain she didn't.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Personally, I subscribe to the Hewitt theory. Why? Because it's a proven fact. Twice now have essentially blank characters made it to the top levels of tournament play on the back of an 8HS. Building speed is extremely important in this game, especially when it's greater than the opponent's. This is why Alex is so good - his handsize is ALWAYS equal to the opponent's handsize + 3.

Sophy is a great character. Aquakinesis does make her slightly less useful, buuuut...she features everything she needs to be very strong. If her handsize were 7, though, this would be a moot point. I'm working on her myself. I haven't figured out the angles yet, mind you...just the very basic concept: Secret Project.

This is also a plan with promo Gen, who thus gains the ability to really screw up people's win conditions even more than he already could.

She didn't, Omar. I can recall 14 of the 16, but I can say with certainty that Mai was not one of them. Kohls did win Highlander with her, however.

Ibuki, Ukyo, Olexa, Hanzo, Elena, Ryu, Cervantes, Yoshitora, Alex, J. Talbain, Alba, Xianghua (sandbagging into Alex), Yun-Seong, Sakura (I'm pretty sure Bautista made the cut),

Mai didn't top 8 worlds, but she did top 8 something. I remember it because I remember saying, "Wth? Windmill Waster? Who uses that card?" But it got him 4th, so props to him.

Handsize is important; it's one of the primary reasons 6 handers only rarely see play. But again, I refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't have an effect. There's just no point. So, don't bring up anything else regarding Gill; I'm not going to sway.

I'm almost sure it was a Coastal Championship, since I recall what you're talking about.