As the thread name, is there any reason why the Custom Grip modification is harder to find than Recoil Gloves?

Short answer seems no, and the benefits each apply do not appear to be taken into consideration with each other when their availibilites were calculated.

Recoil Gloves weigh 1kg, have a +0 Avl, and remove the -20 modifier when firing Basic weapons with one hand.

The Custom Grip weapon modification adds 1kg to the weapons weight, has a -10 Avl, consumes the weapons only modification slot, and removes the -20 modifier when firing Basic weapons with one hand.

In other words, they do the same thing, but one is categorically worse than the other, but has a higher cost.

Its worth noting that in the DH1 errata, Recoil Gloves had their availability of Common set to Rare. I think this is relevant here as well. Personally I could see -30 working with Recoil Gloves.

And not to muddy this topic too much, but what are peoples thoughts on the dual wielding of Basic weapons? As far as I can tell, nothing forbids it. A pair of Storm Bolters with Targeters and Amputator Shells, weilded in both hands via Recoil Gloves, benefitting from Gunslinger and the Desperado/Hive World/Ministorum bonus ability is rather frightening. Certainly they ate it with regards to the difficulty of the acquisition tests involved, but still, this is almost pure equipment alone, little XP spent, and the character can take on some significant challenges (assuming they can get initiative and pass the fear related issues).

EDIT:

To expand upon the above example, It will take a bare minimum of 1200 XP to arrive at, assuming a starting BS of 40. Any less BS will take more XP as a result of needing more ranks to buy necessary advances.

-Ballistic Skill Advance + 5 - 200XP

-Gunslinger - 600XP

-Weapon Training(Bolt) - 400 XP

With just those things, if the above character (Hive World/Ministorum/Desperado, e.g. a 40k version of Monsignor Martinez from King of the Hill) got his hands on a pair of Storm Bolters (-40 Avl), 2 Targeters (-20 Avl), Amputator Shells(-30 Avl) and 2 Recoil Gloves (+0 Avl), then, on his round in combat (likely earlier than others with Hive Worlds +2 to initiative):

1-2 AP on Aim (1 if an Evasion is needed later, otherwise 2, as that greatly increases the lethality)

1 AP Shoot at RoA 2 with the first Storm bolter. Spend a fate point to get +30 on the check (ministorum bonus). With 45BS, this comes out to be a check on BS 85-95 (45 + 30 + 20 from aiming). A likely hit. The targeter imposes a -20 on Evasion. Storm doubles DoSs on the attack. In other words, highly unlikely the target will dodge. Score hits.

1 AP Shoot at RoA 2 with the other Storm Bolter. Since the first most likely hit, benefit from Desperado bonus (+20 to second attack). If another fate point available spend that as well. Another BS 95 test then. With hits scored from first attack, likely to deal severe damage/kill on this attack.

Sadly, I know this is all theory crafting, and serves little actual purpose in a discussion, but its interesting to see how much of the system is weighted towards gear than character skill.

To be perfectly honest, I am REALLY not a fan of recoil gloves and the custom grip upgrade, both from a fluff and gameplay standpoint. Power armor has the support and powered musculature to handle the powerful recoil of storm bolters and combat shotguns with one arm, but I just can't see how a nice pistol grip or unpowered wrist braces could possibly offer the same level of stability.

If they are to be included in the game, I agree that recoil gloves should be much harder to acquire than an extra grip. My guess is that the writer in charge of porting over gear/modifications from DH 1.0 saw the Common availability of recoil gloves in the main rulebook and used that as a basis for their availability in DH 2.0 (even though this was later changed in the errata).

Yeah, in my games I've always enforced a gentleman's agreement of no Custom Grips, no Recoil Gloves, and no one handing/dual wielding of basic weapons. In exchange, I don't use the same, but better, against the party.

The only real exception was in my one Deathwatch game, but even then it was just enforced that no dual wielding of basic weapons. But thats just because its so cool to picture marines one handing their bolter while the other hand swings a [power sword]/[power fist]/[unarmed punch/grab the guant by the neck and crush it].

Yeah, in my games I've always enforced a gentleman's agreement of no Custom Grips, no Recoil Gloves, and no one handing/dual wielding of basic weapons. In exchange, I don't use the same, but better, against the party.

The only real exception was in my one Deathwatch game, but even then it was just enforced that no dual wielding of basic weapons. But thats just because its so cool to picture marines one handing their bolter while the other hand swings a [power sword]/[power fist]/[unarmed punch/grab the guant by the neck and crush it].

None of my players have expressed an interest in using CGs or RGs, but I'd be inclined to follow your stance if they did. The upgrades allow for some pretty ridiculous antics in DH 1.0: for example, the party's sniper-wielding-nutcase assassin could strap on a recoil glove and snipe far-away targets while brusing his teeth with his left hand and suffer no penalties whatsoever! Wielding Basic weapons 1-handed seems like it should be left to Space Marines and power-armored Acolytes.

It'd be a lot more reasonable if there was a significant strength requirement to dual wield basic weapons, and still a penalty for doing so. It'd arguably still be worth it.

One reason I could think of, at least from a background kind of perspective - a custom grip requires the weaponsmith to actually work with the customer to change the grip to his specifics, whereas recoil gloves could be sold in basic glove sizes and do their job.

That being said, the level of technology behind recoil gloves is likely quite a bit higher than simply shaping a grip to fit a person's hand ^^

I'd be okay with both of them being used to fire a hand cannon without penalities, but there really should be some kind of strength (or potentially talent) requirement to fire basic weapons one handedly.

Dual-wielding basic weapons is just... wrong. You might as well wield a great-weapon single handed. (Okay, maybe not).

And how would you reload, anyway?

Why, the same way you reload dual pistols, of course.

Dual-weilding basic weapons is just silly...um...except hand cannons of course...uh...

I can't give an rationale for custom grips. They make no sense.

Recoil gloves on the other hand, maybe - but i'd want to see that hand being locked into the weapon so unusable for anything else.

In general it seems to me to be an uneccessary addition that the rules could well do without.

I've never liked Recoil Gloves or the Custom Grip. They pretty much invalidate an entire group of weapons.

You're right - there's absolutely no point in the Custom Grip as is, when the Recoil Glove is cheaper, better and reusable.

If it were up to me, though, I'd throw both of them out.

I'd say allow dual wielding of basic weapons, but don't make it based on something silly like some gloves or a different handle on the gun. Make it require an absurd level of strength, and still impose a significant penalty. It should be the kind of thing you have to either pour all your XP into Strength for, or stomp around wearing power armour. And it should still be difficult. Even if you have the strength for it, the guns are doubtless going to be unwieldy as hell.

Dual-wielding basic weapons is just... wrong. You might as well wield a great-weapon single handed. (Okay, maybe not).

And how would you reload, anyway?

I've never liked Recoil Gloves or the Custom Grip. They pretty much invalidate an entire group of weapons.

You're right - there's absolutely no point in the Custom Grip as is, when the Recoil Glove is cheaper, better and reusable.

If it were up to me, though, I'd throw both of them out.

I'd say allow dual wielding of basic weapons, but don't make it based on something silly like some gloves or a different handle on the gun. Make it require an absurd level of strength, and still impose a significant penalty. It should be the kind of thing you have to either pour all your XP into Strength for, or stomp around wearing power armour. And it should still be difficult. Even if you have the strength for it, the guns are doubtless going to be unwieldy as hell.

It seems like people are overwhelmingly against allowing dual-wielding of Basic weapons without absurd Strength or power armor. Custom Grip and Recoil Gloves are right out.

Personally, I feel that dual-wielding of Basic weapons should be limited to Power Armor users or (maybe) creatures with Unnatural Strength.

We discussed this in the "old" DH forums once, and I'll repeat here the little anecdote about how I actually tried "dual-wielding" G3's once while I was in the army.

Granted, I didn't have recoil gloves or pistol grips on these, but still.

I could basically shoot "in that general direction". There was no accuracy at all, and you might very well slap the "Spray" quality on such an attack

It was also a lot of fun

Reminds me of the

Given the AA-12's performance and contemporary advances in recoil compensation, I suppose the physical blowback isn't as much of an issue compared to the "classic" G3, which lacks such features (and I have heard of visiting US soldiers injuring themselves trying to "hip-fire" them like you can supposedly do with an M16). As far as 40k is concerned, however, I feel that many guns' sheer weight should indeed be a problem (Warhammer guns are huuuuge ), so a Strength requirement as suggested by Tom Cruise may not be such a bad idea if anyone really wishes to allow such handling of weapons in their game.