Having thought a bit about the social system, it's actually a pretty clever mini game combining actual social roleplay and game mechanics. As I read it, all NPCs have a disposition starting from 40-60 based on mood, modified if they hate or love the inquisition and recognize that you're in it. You have five social "combat" skills: charm, intimidate, deceive, observe, and command. Each NPC gets a little social stat block giving his personality, and which social effects work better or worse on him. You can figure out what might work through roleplay or observing him. Whenever the NPCs try to get something out of the NPC you roll on the disposition, which goes up or down from using the other social actions against him. I think that this section is actually quite ingenious and probably deserves to be fleshed out a bit and organized into a full fledged social combat section.

I think it deserves to be mentioned that this system doesn't need to be used for every social encounter, but why not throw it in? If combat gets to be a granular thing, I don't see why social combat shouldn't be as well.

Honestly, I feel like social combat and the rules on subtlety should get their own chapter and fleshed out a bit more so that the PLAYERS read about them and not just the GM. I've seen almost no threads commenting on these, because they're buried in the GM chapters and don't get 2 full chapters like combat/weapons do.

I know a lot of people rarely used the pretty awesome Endeavour system from Rogue Trader (for a lot of reasons) but I hope this social system doesn't see the same fate. I think a big help on that front would be for the core book to more explicitly support and require its use, same thing for the influence system, and the investigation/clues system.

What does everyone else think? What could be done to cement these mechanics in the game to the same extent as combat?

I like it as it is. Granular social combat is pretty jarring, and reduces the motivation for people to come up with creative arguments for people to actually say.

It has enough structure so that it feels like there are actually rules, and the GM isn't just making stuff up all the time. Making it a system on the level of the combat system tends to take people out of the game, I've played a bunch of these systems, and beyond what's already there, most of them don't work very well.

Its in the "Narrative Tools" chapter, which the players should read, as it talks about everything they're going to do besides fight.

Well, I don't necessarily think the rules should be made more granular, but I think codifying them in a more systematic manner similar to combat would be helpful. Doing something like:

Overview of Influence/Subtlety (Already exists in a simple format)

Overview of the Clues/Leads system

Overview of Social System (Social Skills are used to change Disposition and get things out of the NPCs; NPCs can test Disposition after being plied by a Social Skill; NPCs have social stat blocks on how the Skills affect them and can be given a Motivation)

Overview of the main Social Skills and what their basic effects are, Overview of how other skills can be used

Overview of Example Social Modifiers (Appearance, Leverage, NPC motivations/nature, Context of request), and include a statement that well argued/clever roleplay can bypass rolling completely.

List of the NPC personalities, list of some general categories for Motivation (Wants to Obtain Something, Wants to Stay Safe, Wants to be Known, Wants to Escape, etc.)

This isn't really adding any granularity and it would help make the process more systematic and easier to use.

Ah, I completely agree, the layout for that whole chapter could use some work.

I was thinking you were talking about some of those social combat systems which run parallel to the physical combat system.

I like some of the ideas in the Social Encounters like different personalities reacting differently to various skills. In the same time I think this is just a start not a whole Social Encounter mechanic. I agree with SomVone's statement that making it on combat system level might be too much. However I would go a step or even two further from what's in the book.

I don't feel there is enough tension in the encounter. They should add a section where GM and players agree on the stake of the encounter. Then we could play really exciting social combats with high stakes and characters taking a risk.

Another thing is the outcome. It's just someone will or will not help characters. NPCs often have their own motives and while being convince by characters to do something they may be trying to get their own game. Players should have Disposition in the encounters as well. Then they could lose the encounter by being convinced by the NPCs to NPCs' point of view.

With that option players would have to agree with potential consequences of the encounter i.e. :

- what happens if they win without losing any of their own disposition/Social HP

- what happens if they lose without taking any of their opponent's disposition/Social HP

- what happens in between

I think this would add a interesting twist on solving some problems by talking them through. Even some of the "main" fights of the adventure could be social encounters i.e. players exposing a traitor during the hearings in planetary senate.

And they should change the Cold Hearted talent. Right now this negates Charm skill no matter how "charming" someone is. Just one talent and a NPC/PC with no matter how high Fel and Charm 5 (+30) can go home.

Ah, I completely agree, the layout for that whole chapter could use some work.

I was thinking you were talking about some of those social combat systems which run parallel to the physical combat system.

For what it's worth, Tome of Excess' system makes a great rap battle simulator.

For what it's worth, Tome of Excess' system makes a great rap battle simulator.

Explain, please? I just ordered this yesterday, and I'm not feeling the least bit confident about having done that now you've associated it with a music genre I loathe.

For what it's worth, Tome of Excess' system makes a great rap battle simulator.

Explain, please? I just ordered this yesterday, and I'm not feeling the least bit confident about having done that now you've associated it with a music genre I loathe.

This is hilarious.

For what it's worth, Tome of Excess' system makes a great rap battle simulator.

Explain, please? I just ordered this yesterday, and I'm not feeling the least bit confident about having done that now you've associated it with a music genre I loathe.

In chapter 3: Princes of Pain, there is a Social Conflict Rules section he may be referring to. They encourage two people role playing a verbal conflict. I believe he just pictured two rappers arguing in rhyme. There is nothing in the book saying it is Rap or has to be done that way.

Ah, I completely agree, the layout for that whole chapter could use some work.

I was thinking you were talking about some of those social combat systems which run parallel to the physical combat system.

For what it's worth, Tome of Excess' system makes a great rap battle simulator.

hehe. Today I finally got a chance to look into the Tome of Excess's Social Encounter. Shame they didn't include this rules in DH 2. Influence seems to be a great candidate to be used instead of Infamy.

For what it's worth, Tome of Excess' system makes a great rap battle simulator.

Explain, please? I just ordered this yesterday, and I'm not feeling the least bit confident about having done that now you've associated it with a music genre I loathe.

No worries. It's not 8 mile type of "social" battle .

I introduced social encounters long time ago in my DH adventures. Players like it and people who invested in Fellowship don't feel like they wasted their XP.

I like some of the ideas from ToE and I'm going to introduce them into my Social Encounters in DH.

I agree. I recently have tried running a round of social combat- with a made up stat called "influence" based on the persona (cover identity) that the characters would make up instead of Infamy- and it was great fun and a great success which I am guaranteed to be repeating.

Frankly, I love having a rule system for arguments and whatnot, but I'm worried this one might take a bit too much bookkeeping. I'll use it loosely, but I might convert it into A disposition of 1-20 (just divide by 5), and maybe roll 2d20 vs Disposition instead of a linear % roll (I do like bell curves).

Most of the talents and special abilities that players can use in this encounter either give auto-pass or affect more targets. I feel like there could be more desire for players to use this system if there were some better options that play into this. How often do you talk to crowds? I know it happens, but it's like that's the only thing really going on. What if my Hierophant could mitigate his failed attempts at charming a local brigand leader, or even soften the brigand's resistance to silver tongues? Or a convincing lie talent that adds DoS, or a plausible deniability talent that softens my DoF. Perhaps even go down the path of attractive talents, adding to their initial Disposition.

Much of this can be handled freely by the GM as they feel appropriate, but I feel like having these options instead of "Fellowship x DoS" might be more interesting.

Or a Convincing Lie talent that adds DoS, or a Plausible Deniability talent that softens my DoF.

Interesting idea. I'm going to make a note of this idea and keep it in mind when reading through ToE.

I would also like to thank dholda for putting my concerns to rest.