In accordance with multiple-universe theory, in some parallel dimension, beta testers of Brighthammer 40k RPG: Bright Ecumenism Second Edition are now complaining that the change from 1e rule of "subtract the first digit of the roll from the first digit of the TN" to "gain one DoS from every full ten by which your roll beat the TN" is causing a glitch since people with the higher characteristic bonus don't have a higher chance of scoring multiple DoS anymore.

That's only an inconsistency when you assume there's some inherent meaning in beating the target number by the same percentage. There isn't, it just seems to you that way because the old system worked like that.

"That's only inconsistent if you think it's inconsistent'.

Well, yes.

The thing is. If your target number is 40, you will get one extra DoS at 39, and a second extra DoS at 29. If your target number is 49, you get one extra DoS at 39 and a second extra DoS at 29. Basically, the system makes it really difficult to gauge just how much better a given stat is. A BS 50 is significantly better than a BS 49. While a BS 49 is obviously better than BS 44, exactly how much better is pretty difficult to gauge (hint: it's less significant than the 5% improvement might suggest).

In the old system, all advances were linear and the benefit of increasing a characteristic was easily predictable. You may or may not prefer one system over the other, but you can't claim that the new system is more intuitive.

What I'm questioning (and I realize it's unlikely that I'll ever get an answer) is what the new system is supposed to accomplish compared to the old system. I suspect the purpose of the new system is "same outcome as the old system, but easier to calculate" in which case I find it to be a monumental failure. Of course, it's quite possible it's trying to do something completely different. I'm just not sure what.

That's only an inconsistency when you assume there's some inherent meaning in beating the target number by the same percentage. There isn't, it just seems to you that way because the old system worked like that.

"That's only inconsistent if you think it's inconsistent'.

Well, yes.

The thing is. If your target number is 40, you will get one extra DoS at 39, and a second extra DoS at 29. If your target number is 49, you get one extra DoS at 39 and a second extra DoS at 29. Basically, the system makes it really difficult to gauge just how much better a given stat is. A BS 50 is significantly better than a BS 49. While a BS 49 is obviously better than BS 44, exactly how much better is pretty difficult to gauge (hint: it's less significant than the 5% improvement might suggest).

In the old system, all advances were linear and the benefit of increasing a characteristic was easily predictable. You may or may not prefer one system over the other, but you can't claim that the new system is more intuitive.

What I'm questioning (and I realize it's unlikely that I'll ever get an answer) is what the new system is supposed to accomplish compared to the old system. I suspect the purpose of the new system is "same outcome as the old system, but easier to calculate" in which case I find it to be a monumental failure. Of course, it's quite possible it's trying to do something completely different. I'm just not sure what.

My emphasis added.

No, they weren't.

Reaching a new bonus value (40, 50, 60, etc.) was always where you got a serious increase. When doing melee damage, there was no difference in having 30 or 39 strength, but when you hit 40 it suddenly jumped.

I don't understand why this is consistently ignored.

Speaking from actual playing experience, the system accomplishes exactly what you assume it sets out to do: DoS calculations are now much, much faster in my gaming group. There's no longer the "Uh.. let's see.." moment. Now the (correct) number is just blurted out. It's a huge improvement.

What I'm questioning (and I realize it's unlikely that I'll ever get an answer) is what the new system is supposed to accomplish compared to the old system. I suspect the purpose of the new system is "same outcome as the old system, but easier to calculate" in which case I find it to be a monumental failure. Of course, it's quite possible it's trying to do something completely different. I'm just not sure what.

It's been pointed out multiple times that, in addition to being an easier calculation, the new system puts an increased emphasis on characteristic bonuses, which didnt matter for more than half of the characteristics in basically every prior system. Increasing your characteristic bonus means you have added a new degree of success to your rolls. Increasing a characteristic without increasing the bonus means you're more likely to succeed by the amount you increased it. This isn't easy to grasp at first look (I didn't notice it at first, either) but that's the end result of the change.

That's only an inconsistency when you assume there's some inherent meaning in beating the target number by the same percentage. There isn't, it just seems to you that way because the old system worked like that.

"That's only inconsistent if you think it's inconsistent'.

Well, yes.

It's more like "it's only inconsistent because you think it's inconsistent."

And what you think matters little in light of the facts: the rule is perfectly consistent with itself.

The thing is. If your target number is 40, you will get one extra DoS at 39, and a second extra DoS at 29. If your target number is 49, you get one extra DoS at 39 and a second extra DoS at 29. Basically, the system makes it really difficult to gauge just how much better a given stat is. A BS 50 is significantly better than a BS 49. While a BS 49 is obviously better than BS 44, exactly how much better is pretty difficult to gauge (hint: it's less significant than the 5% improvement might suggest).

In the old system, all advances were linear and the benefit of increasing a characteristic was easily predictable. You may or may not prefer one system over the other, but you can't claim that the new system is more intuitive.

Unless some rule (whether in core system or some Talent/Trait your character had) was dependent on your characteristic bonus, in which case characteristic 50 was significantly better than 49.

Unless you wanted a particular Talent with characteristic prerequisites, in which case 35 was significantly better than 34.

Also, advances are still linear: higher value lets you pass tests more often. This is as intuitive as it gets.

What I'm questioning (and I realize it's unlikely that I'll ever get an answer) is what the new system is supposed to accomplish compared to the old system. I suspect the purpose of the new system is "same outcome as the old system, but easier to calculate" in which case I find it to be a monumental failure. Of course, it's quite possible it's trying to do something completely different. I'm just not sure what.

It's simply trying to speed up the process of counting DoS, and my preliminary tests confirm that it delivers in spades.

And what you think matters little in light of the facts: the rule is perfectly consistent with itself.

I don't think "fact" means what you think it does.

Reaching a new bonus value (40, 50, 60, etc.) was always where you got a serious increase. When doing melee damage, there was no difference in having 30 or 39 strength, but when you hit 40 it suddenly jumped.

I don't understand why this is consistently ignored.

Uhm, because we're talking about characteristics tests, not melee damage rolls? Yeah, sure, Strength bonuses and (in particular) Toughness bonuses were really important, but that's not even remotely what I thought this discussion was about.

I thought we were talking about Degrees of Success.

Anyway, this is getting pretty stupid. I'm out.

Reaching a new bonus value (40, 50, 60, etc.) was always where you got a serious increase. When doing melee damage, there was no difference in having 30 or 39 strength, but when you hit 40 it suddenly jumped.

I don't understand why this is consistently ignored.

Uhm, because we're talking about characteristics tests, not melee damage rolls? Yeah, sure, Strength bonuses and (in particular) Toughness bonuses were really important, but that's not even remotely what I thought this discussion was about.

I thought we were talking about Degrees of Success.

Anyway, this is getting pretty stupid. I'm out.

We were talking about Degrees of Success, in relation to the Characteristic Bonus suddenly mattering more than it used to.

What I made was an analogy to a similar system in DH1, in which the Characteristic Bonus had always had a similar, relatively greater value.

What this change effectively does (in addition to what I must assume is its primary purpose - making counting DoS simpler - which it also delivers on), is making the same rule (Characteristic Bonus being a big deal) equivalent for all stats.

You're right, though - this is getting pretty stupid. Has been for a while, honestly.

You're right, though - this is getting pretty stupid. Has been for a while, honestly.

And yet...my OP observation; that the system has a glitch, remains.

The new calculation method makes it far more likely that you will score 2+DoS than only a single DoS, and your chance of only 1DoS counter-intuitively increases as you 'improve' between '10's' thresholds.

For good or bad - a glitch.

You're right, though - this is getting pretty stupid. Has been for a while, honestly.

And yet...my OP observation; that the system has a glitch, remains.

The new calculation method makes it far more likely that you will score 2+DoS than only a single DoS, and your chance of only 1DoS counter-intuitively increases as you 'improve' between '10's' thresholds.

For good or bad - a glitch.

Le sigh.

Call it what you want. I don't care anymore.

FFG: I think it's a change for the better.

You're right, though - this is getting pretty stupid. Has been for a while, honestly.

And yet...my OP observation; that the system has a glitch, remains.

The new calculation method makes it far more likely that you will score 2+DoS than only a single DoS, and your chance of only 1DoS counter-intuitively increases as you 'improve' between '10's' thresholds.

For good or bad - a glitch.

Uh, no. "Glitch" implies something malfunctions. Nothing's malfunctioning here, it just doesn't function the way you want it to function.

Echoing Magnus here: I think the change is great, FFG. Please keep it!

You're right, though - this is getting pretty stupid. Has been for a while, honestly.

And yet...my OP observation; that the system has a glitch, remains.

The new calculation method makes it far more likely that you will score 2+DoS than only a single DoS, and your chance of only 1DoS counter-intuitively increases as you 'improve' between '10's' thresholds.

For good or bad - a glitch.

I guess the question is does this matter? Personally, I don't really see an issue. I brute forced the numbers (e.g. I made a spreadsheet containing the amount of DoSs for any given test where the target is between 1-100, for any given roll between 1-100, for both DH1 and DH2), and found that yes, indeed, the amount of results of 1 DoS/DoF has decreased by about 4.14%. And yes, this does mean the amount of instances of 2 DoSs > the amount of instances of 1 DoS. Realize in DH1, the amount instances of the two were about the same (in DH1, the amount of 1 DoS results accounted for about 9.55% of the results, and the amount of 2 DoS results accounted for 8.55% of results. In DH2 its now 5.41% and 9% respectively).

But once again, all this means is the same thing MagnusPhil is pointing out: increasing the characteristic bonus now carries more weight. It actually makes more sense now with the characteristic advancement scheme. We can increase a characteristic 10 times, but only 5 of those increases actually matter. 5 meainingful characteristic increases is quite in line with the amount we had in DH1.

Its almost as if now we have a notion of an uncommon "weak success" with 1 DoS, and a more common "normal success" is now 2 DoSs.

You're right, though - this is getting pretty stupid. Has been for a while, honestly.

And yet...my OP observation; that the system has a glitch, remains.

The new calculation method makes it far more likely that you will score 2+DoS than only a single DoS, and your chance of only 1DoS counter-intuitively increases as you 'improve' between '10's' thresholds.

For good or bad - a glitch.

Uh, no. "Glitch" implies something malfunctions. Nothing's malfunctioning here, it just doesn't function the way you want it to function.

Echoing Magnus here: I think the change is great, FFG. Please keep it!

I don't want it to function in any particular way.

Simply pointed out an observation of an odd little issue.

Nothing i've read changes my opinion about it, although i think we've analysed it to death.

People are starting to get angry though so perhaps we should lay the topic to rest.