Disclaimer: Forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere but I performed a search and didn't quite find anything.

I come from a long history of WEG D6 gaming. I tried the d20 system when it was new, even through the Revised but by the time Saga came out, I was back to D6. So in that context, I miss dodge. I know it's a talent, but I feel any character should be able to attempt to dodge, but it's not listed as one of the maneuvers so I started thinking "why not?"

Basically, if a madman were coming at me with a gun and there was no cover available, I'd run zig-zag, bob up and down and do my damnedest to make myself harder to hit. Probably not very effective against a good shooter, but a schmoe with a grudge (read as "minion") it may very well be effective enough.

I know it was a skill in D6, but that doesn't feel right with this game. Then it would be an action and likely an Athletics check which is based on Brawn which again, just doesn't feel right. So I'm leaning with a maneuver.

I'm thinking as a Maneuver I'd allow my players to dodge. However, it's not as good as the talent. So to differentiate it, lets call it "Bob and Weave". I've simply based this off the guarded stance maneuver. So what this does is it adds a setback die to all the character's combat checks until the end of their next turn and they gain a Ranged defense of 1 for the same duration. This little maneuver also adds another option to help eliminate the "I aim, then shoot" monotony, adding another choice for the players - do they want bonus to hit or be harder to hit?

Additionally, it makes no sense to stack this with dropping prone. It's one or the either. Obviously "bob and weave" gains the benefit of not being easier to hit with Melee attacks and the character is still standing. So as not to make prone useless, I'd also add a bonus die to ranged attacks for a prone character. Like in real life, it's easier to shoot from a more stable position.

No offense intended, but dodging what? A blaster shot? Doesn't that seem a bit... silly? Sure, maybe if you're talking about Melee or Brawl, but outside of that, well... blaster fire would simple move too quickly to dodge.

No offense intended, but dodging what? A blaster shot? Doesn't that seem a bit... silly? Sure, maybe if you're talking about Melee or Brawl, but outside of that, well... blaster fire would simple move too quickly to dodge.

Why? Watch the movies, blaster shots actually move slower than our own real-life projectiles do! (I know, it's just a function of cinematic special effects so we can actually SEE the things.)

To really answer your question as an answer... it's not the actual blaster bolt you're dodging, it's the being aiming the weapon at you. You make yourself harder to hit.

If I point a gun at you, are you just going to stand there since you can't possibly dodge a bullet? Your answer is sillier than my proposal!

(and by your logic, you shouldn't use the Dodge talent either.)

I know it was a skill in D6, but that doesn't feel right with this game. Then it would be an action and likely an Athletics check which is based on Brawn which again, just doesn't feel right. So I'm leaning with a maneuver.

Why not a Coordination check?

I know it was a skill in D6, but that doesn't feel right with this game. Then it would be an action and likely an Athletics check which is based on Brawn which again, just doesn't feel right. So I'm leaning with a maneuver.

Why not a Coordination check?

I did think of that, but after reading the Coordination skill, that just didn't feel right either. You're just flailing about like a madman trying not to let someone get a bead on you - it doesn't really have anything to do with finesse. Again, just didn't "feel" right to me. Plus the mechanic was already there to add a Melee defense point - so it was just logical to me to extend that for a ranged one.

I do admit, the "visual" of this is kind of silly - so that doesn't sit right with me.

So essentially you want to create a maneuver that applies the effect of using cover, but needing to be used every round and usable regardless of whether or not you're in an open room?

So essentially you want to create a maneuver that applies the effect of using cover, but needing to be used every round and usable regardless of whether or not you're in an open room?

Yes. I toyed with the idea of it being the only thing you can do in a round AND it costing strain. I'm not against that yet and am still considering it...

Doesn't Side Step already do this? And Defensive Stance do the same for Melee?

Doesn't Side Step already do this? And Defensive Stance do the same for Melee?

The answers to the first question is clearly spelled out in the OP.

The second question is the basis for the "house" rule (also addressed in the OP.)

People who are trained move in a more tactical manner. People who are not trained run like people who are scared, crouched at best. If ya want players to move tactically, have them invest in a specialization that offers tactical movements. By giving "bob and weave" as an option to players, it takes away from the talents, even if they are not as good.

I would love for my Mercenary Soldier to have the Career Skill: Cool, but that isn't the case and I could argue that the career should. However, I can still train in it albeit at a higher cost. And I will do just that.

So from the responses I'm getting here, I have a question for GM's.

Does not a single player ever ask when playing this game, "What? I can't dodge? I can't attempt NOT to be hit? I have to spend 25 XP to pick up a second specialization (more if it's 3rd or greater) and that one talent just to be able to minimally add a single setback dice to the shot and have it cost me strain?"

Players have never have asked those questions? Nobody has really stated why from a DESIGN standpoint they think this is a bad idea. Everyone is just posting questions as arguments or arguments without basis. I don't want "that's just the way it is" answers. That's not the point since I am obviously adding a maneuver (so its not the way it is for me and my players, see? ) More substance please (from experienced GM's!) There's a maneuver for melee defense, why not for ranged? The book doesn't state there isn't, the maneuver list isn't all-inclusive. The book states that. But yet, they don't list a ranged maneuver other than prone.

I honestly am looking for a good reason for or against this, but I haven't seen any substantive design arguments here yet. Bring em on!

People who are trained move in a more tactical manner. People who are not trained run like people who are scared, crouched at best. If ya want players to move tactically, have them invest in a specialization that offers tactical movements. By giving "bob and weave" as an option to players, it takes away from the talents, even if they are not as good.

I would love for my Mercenary Soldier to have the Career Skill: Cool, but that isn't the case and I could argue that the career should. However, I can still train in it albeit at a higher cost. And I will do just that.

To answer your argument. The whole point is to have a simple dodge for people who are NOT trained. People who are not trained in tactical movement can still move to avoid being hit by something, right? Right.

Tactically trained or not, if I whip a golf ball at your head, are you going to just stand there? Simple argument.

Better yet, to place this in game context, if you know I am going to whip a golf ball at your head before I do it (you have the initiative) are you just going to stand there, whip your own golf ball at me and then let me do it?

People who are trained move in a more tactical manner. People who are not trained run like people who are scared, crouched at best. If ya want players to move tactically, have them invest in a specialization that offers tactical movements. By giving "bob and weave" as an option to players, it takes away from the talents, even if they are not as good.

I would love for my Mercenary Soldier to have the Career Skill: Cool, but that isn't the case and I could argue that the career should. However, I can still train in it albeit at a higher cost. And I will do just that.

To answer your argument. The whole point is to have a simple dodge for people who are NOT trained. People who are not trained in tactical movement can still move to avoid being hit by something, right? Right.

Tactically trained or not, if I whip a golf ball at your head, are you going to just stand there? Simple argument.

Better yet, to place this in game context, if you know I am going to whip a golf ball at your head before I do it (you have the initiative) are you just going to stand there, whip your own golf ball at me and then let me do it?

If I have initiative I stop you from throwing the golf ball in short range by moving into engaged range and going to Brawling. If at medium range I take cover, or take two strain for two maneuvers to get into engaged range and brawl with ya.

In RL it may go the same way and chances are, I will get hit by the golf ball either way.

I know what you are saying. I just feel that if ya try to add something such as "bob and weave" it takes from peoples talents.

Likewise, I understand your argument, but I feel I've already considered them in the OP. This is for un-talented characters without cover available (cover should be first choice/be better choice anyhow - I feel that part needs tweaking to make it true) and purposely using rules already existing which don't take away from the talents (which are ranked, more potent, and out-of-turn.)

I'm making a rule for sneetches without stars on their bellies, yet star-bellied sneetches are still cool.

As a long time WEG player I feel your pain. We'll be testing Edge this weekend for the first time to see if we want to move to it, or go back to our old books (after years of scrounging and collecting I have nearly every book, hard to give that up).

I like dodge, it gives the characters a feel of some control over their destiny. It might not be super realistic, but it is cinematic. It's not like half the stuff they do in these movies are that realistic.

That said, I haven't come up with a good option yet, but I'm also still pondering on it. I'm not going t house rule something in until I try it as is for a while.

As a long time WEG player I feel your pain. We'll be testing Edge this weekend for the first time to see if we want to move to it, or go back to our old books (after years of scrounging and collecting I have nearly every book, hard to give that up).

I like dodge, it gives the characters a feel of some control over their destiny. It might not be super realistic, but it is cinematic. It's not like half the stuff they do in these movies are that realistic.

That said, I haven't come up with a good option yet, but I'm also still pondering on it. I'm not going t house rule something in until I try it as is for a while.

Used a good word there: Destiny. Players who would want to "dodge" could use a force point to add a setback die to an attack made on them.

For me, I think the big thing is, this is already balanced out for via attack difficulties and soak, as well as boost dice, advantages, and talents. I really think adding a skill check on top of all that takes it overboard.

So I'll play devil's advocate with myself here. Kinda "typing out loud" if you will.

Talents aside. There is more to targeting someone than just range and size. But perhaps the difficulty to hit someone already takes into account the incidentals of movement that occur during combat. It is an abstract system after all. If this is so, then I would think anyone NOT moving or behind cover would have a bonus dice added to any pools to hit them. For example, someone standing out in the open and aiming for a round should be easier to hit than someone running for cover or range and shooting back.

If there is no cover, what's the first instinct of non-trained people? Jump around like idiots? No - they go prone and there's already a rule for that.

I'll probably do as Split up there and see how it plays out with the ol' D6 gang first.

For me, I think the big thing is, this is already balanced out for via attack difficulties and soak, as well as boost dice and advantages. I really think adding a skill check on top of all that takes it overboard.

Skill checks were already ruled out. Read the OP please.

As a long time WEG player I feel your pain. We'll be testing Edge this weekend for the first time to see if we want to move to it, or go back to our old books (after years of scrounging and collecting I have nearly every book, hard to give that up).

I like dodge, it gives the characters a feel of some control over their destiny. It might not be super realistic, but it is cinematic. It's not like half the stuff they do in these movies are that realistic.

That said, I haven't come up with a good option yet, but I'm also still pondering on it. I'm not going t house rule something in until I try it as is for a while.

Used a good word there: Destiny. Players who would want to "dodge" could use a force point to add a setback die to an attack made on them.

Oooh - yes. Nice, clean and simple, rules already in place. Such an elegant solution right in front of my face! See? this is why I like you people here!

.

Used a good word there: Destiny. Players who would want to "dodge" could use a force point to add a setback die to an attack made on them.

The destiny points would be a way to go.

If I did add a "Bob and Weave" I would probably make it an action. So untrained dodgers would have to use their action to add a setback die to the pool.

So from the responses I'm getting here, I have a question for GM's.

Does not a single player ever ask when playing this game, "What? I can't dodge? I can't attempt NOT to be hit? I have to spend 25 XP to pick up a second specialization (more if it's 3rd or greater) and that one talent just to be able to minimally add a single setback dice to the shot and have it cost me strain?"

Players have never have asked those questions? Nobody has really stated why from a DESIGN standpoint they think this is a bad idea. Everyone is just posting questions as arguments or arguments without basis. I don't want "that's just the way it is" answers. That's not the point since I am obviously adding a maneuver (so its not the way it is for me and my players, see? ) More substance please (from experienced GM's!) There's a maneuver for melee defense, why not for ranged? The book doesn't state there isn't, the maneuver list isn't all-inclusive. The book states that. But yet, they don't list a ranged maneuver other than prone.

I honestly am looking for a good reason for or against this, but I haven't seen any substantive design arguments here yet. Bring em on!

If a player said that I would probably just say that normal dodging in already included in the to-hit difficulty (i.e. it is assumed you are dodging when you can).

Skill checks were already ruled out. Read the OP please.

Fine. That doesn't answer the spirit of my response. The game already accounts for situational combat using attack difficulties, boost dice, talents, and advantages. Why make it more complex?

Used a good word there: Destiny. Players who would want to "dodge" could use a force point to add a setback die to an attack made on them.

That's probably the best and most elegant suggestion I've seen so far.

One of the things that I just want to point out is this:

Why do people assume that the combat rules are based around the idea that characters are just standing there, taking no effort to not get shot at?

Remember, just because it isn't "your turn" and just because you aren't spending maneuvers to move doesn't mean that your character is stock still in some kind of meta-combat time frame. The narrative flair of the game, I would say, assumes that your character is doing things like dodging and ducking and, in short, trying to not get shot when blaster bolts are flying.

Because make no mistake: if a character WERE to just stand still in the open, and someone opens fire on them at medium range, that check isn't going to be just a plain "roll skill against two purple." They're gonna get plenty of boost dice, maybe an upgrade, or perhaps even a decrease in difficulty to make that shot.

Can't you just fall prone as a maneuver? This adds a misfortune dice to the attack pool.