I can confirm it's been done - some RPG related sites/forums I visit have had links to scans posted up for about 2-3 weeks now.

It's going to happen, because there's no legal PDF - that's a lot more money that could have been made had Lucas Licensing not organised its licences in such a way as to not allow FFG to make a PDF.

Being the digital age, It would of happened anyway..

Well the Beta PDF is certainly out there but surprisingly the actual rule book has not seemed to surface on any major site. Having bought the hardback book, I am kinda on the fence here regarding a legal or illegal PDF version :/

I can only assume you don't visit many sites, it's easily available on one major Traditional Games board...

I did find what you were talking about, yeah...

Luckily a bad scan but, sure would be nice if FFG had the rights to put out a good one.

Admitting you downloaded the illegal document by commenting on its quality is probably not a good idea. It's kinda like saying, "Luckily it's bad child porn."

Not to be too offensive, but that is about the stupidest comment I have read today. Comparing downloading a PDF of a book I have legally purchased to child porn is literally on the border of retard status.

Secondly, I don't have to bother downloading it, you can preview any pdf in your browser and it is stored in cache only for as long as your settings allow. In my case every time the browser closes. The scan is so bad, I wouldn't bother keeping it even though I *do* want a pdf of it.

I own the printed book, as do five of the eight people in my group, so I wouldn't feel particularly guilty for getting a copy of an "unofficial" PDF at this point if it came along. But whether or not it was shoddy quality or pixel perfect and searchable, I would set that copy aside in a heartbeat for an official PDF because I support the product and want it to thrive. I suspect there are enough like minded folks that Disney's and FFG's bottom line would benefit quite nicely for releasing a PDF. FFG's done it before, so they obviously recognize the market and would if they could. But as others have pointed out, it's not clear if Disney even can change their minds at this point without some legal negotiation that simply wouldn't be cost effective for such a small segment of their kingdom. It's a shame if they're not at least testing the waters though.

I will be the optimist and predict that this game will have legal PDFs at some point. It may take a while but I have faith that it can be done.

I will be the optimist and predict that this game will have legal PDFs at some point. It may take a while but I have faith that it can be done.

Saga Edition never did, and WotC have a hell of a lot more money and pull than FFG.

Secondly, I don't have to bother downloading it, you can preview any pdf in your browser and it is stored in cache only for as long as your settings allow. In my case every time the browser closes. The scan is so bad, I wouldn't bother keeping it even though I *do* want a pdf of it.

Previewing the PDF in your browser still requires a copy to be downloaded to your temp files, which legally counts the same as downloading it and keeping it - it's still against the law and a breach of copyright.

Actually, is it a breach of copywrite? If you bought the book, is it illegal to download the PDF of it? It doesn't seem like it should be...

It would be illegal to give the PDF to other people, I think... but then, is it illegal to lend the book to other people? If not, what is the difference?

And on that note, the Talent Trees say that they are legal for personal use. Does that mean it would be illegal to distribute copies of them to your friends or to use reproduced versions of them?

Man, copywrite laws are confusing.

I will be the optimist and predict that this game will have legal PDFs at some point. It may take a while but I have faith that it can be done.

Saga Edition never did, and WotC have a hell of a lot more money and pull than FFG.

The Mouse will take care of it.

Actually, is it a breach of copywrite? If you bought the book, is it illegal to download the PDF of it? It doesn't seem like it should be...

It would be illegal to give the PDF to other people, I think... but then, is it illegal to lend the book to other people? If not, what is the difference?

And on that note, the Talent Trees say that they are legal for personal use. Does that mean it would be illegal to distribute copies of them to your friends or to use reproduced versions of them?

Man, copywrite laws are confusing.

Owning the book doesn't give you the right to download an illegal PDF, no, and the Personal Use bit means you can't put it online, but you can give copies to members of your group.

The difference between giving a copy of a PDF, and lending a hard copy you bought, is that you had to make a copy of a copyrighted product you didn't have a licence to copy, which breaches copyright, and giving them your hard copy, which involves no duplication, and so does not break copyright. The equivalent of giving a copy of the PDF would be scanning and printing off a copy of the book, and giving that to your friend, rather than giving him your copy of the book.

Never mind. I found my answer.

People will steal it, that goes without saying. But, not everyone would steal it, and NOT putting out an official PDF for sale doesn't stop the pirates, as some have said there is a PDF out there. So, who do they hurt by not putting out a PDF?

Themselves.

If Lucas did put out a PDF, it would still get stolen, but SOME people would pay for it, and SOME people paying for it, is way better than NO people paying for it, and still getting it.

People will steal it, that goes without saying. But, not everyone would steal it, and NOT putting out an official PDF for sale doesn't stop the pirates, as some have said there is a PDF out there. So, who do they hurt by not putting out a PDF?

Themselves.

If Lucas did put out a PDF, it would still get stolen, but SOME people would pay for it, and SOME people paying for it, is way better than NO people paying for it, and still getting it.

This argument is moot anyways. The license prevents release of PDFs of the products. End of story. FFG can't release PDFs without a license that allows them to.

Secondly, I don't have to bother downloading it, you can preview any pdf in your browser and it is stored in cache only for as long as your settings allow. In my case every time the browser closes. The scan is so bad, I wouldn't bother keeping it even though I *do* want a pdf of it.

Previewing the PDF in your browser still requires a copy to be downloaded to your temp files, which legally counts the same as downloading it and keeping it - it's still against the law and a breach of copyright.

Actually the court has ruled about a seven years ago, that something in your cache files is not the same as intentionally downloading. This was ruled for purely because of the fact that you cannot know what the contents of a web page are going to contain before you load the page.

This was a case regarding specifically the topic listed above in which a person was sent a link to a site that contained illegal porn, and at the same time the police were informed that the individual collected illegal porn. The individual fought the case and they ruled in his favor. See case: Pennsylvania v. Diodoro (I am an IT VP, so I tend to keep up on the legalities of information tech)

People will steal it, that goes without saying. But, not everyone would steal it, and NOT putting out an official PDF for sale doesn't stop the pirates, as some have said there is a PDF out there. So, who do they hurt by not putting out a PDF?

Themselves.

If Lucas did put out a PDF, it would still get stolen, but SOME people would pay for it, and SOME people paying for it, is way better than NO people paying for it, and still getting it.

This argument is moot anyways. The license prevents release of PDFs of the products. End of story. FFG can't release PDFs without a license that allows them to.

Just because they don't have the license doesn't mean they could not get the license and as far as we know there could very well be an ongoing discussion bewteen FFG and LFL. So we don't know if it is the end of the story.

Stay tuned. Interesting things can happen.

I must confess, Disney is usually very good, and very smart about multimedia monetization. The fact that there's a licensing issue preventing an additional revenue stream has got to be on someone's agenda. Likewise, I'd be shocked if FFG didn't have reliable numbers discussing the advantages of .pdfs. Keep in mind, there's a multi-year product line here,

It's not unreasonable to hope that something will be worked out eventually.Trust in Disney's legal team to find a way to wring additional profit out of IP's, if nothing else.

Secondly, I don't have to bother downloading it, you can preview any pdf in your browser and it is stored in cache only for as long as your settings allow. In my case every time the browser closes. The scan is so bad, I wouldn't bother keeping it even though I *do* want a pdf of it.

Previewing the PDF in your browser still requires a copy to be downloaded to your temp files, which legally counts the same as downloading it and keeping it - it's still against the law and a breach of copyright.

Actually the court has ruled about a seven years ago, that something in your cache files is not the same as intentionally downloading. This was ruled for purely because of the fact that you cannot know what the contents of a web page are going to contain before you load the page.

This was a case regarding specifically the topic listed above in which a person was sent a link to a site that contained illegal porn, and at the same time the police were informed that the individual collected illegal porn. The individual fought the case and they ruled in his favor. See case: Pennsylvania v. Diodoro (I am an IT VP, so I tend to keep up on the legalities of information tech)

I'm impressed with the fortitude of this conversation. It's been what, ten years now? More? That's some staying power. This must be how Bill Murray felt in Groundhog's Day.

I will be the optimist and predict that this game will have legal PDFs at some point. It may take a while but I have faith that it can be done.

Saga Edition never did, and WotC have a hell of a lot more money and pull than FFG.

LFL, unlike Disney, didn't understand (1) the value of PDF, (2) the harm it was doing to its licensees by not allowing PDF, and (3) that scanning is so easy that the PDFs will happen anyway.

Actually, is it a breach of copywrite? If you bought the book, is it illegal to download the PDF of it? It doesn't seem like it should be...

It would be illegal to give the PDF to other people, I think... but then, is it illegal to lend the book to other people? If not, what is the difference?

And on that note, the Talent Trees say that they are legal for personal use. Does that mean it would be illegal to distribute copies of them to your friends or to use reproduced versions of them?

Man, copywrite laws are confusing.

Copyright, in the US, allows you to scan your own copy, but not to share. It also has been judged (for the moment) to allow owners of a physical product to use the backup provision to avoid prosecution for infringement for having pirate scans of that product. Hosting the product, however, is a crime. Going to known filehosting sites may get you on watched lists.

People will steal it, that goes without saying. But, not everyone would steal it, and NOT putting out an official PDF for sale doesn't stop the pirates, as some have said there is a PDF out there. So, who do they hurt by not putting out a PDF?

Themselves.

If Lucas did put out a PDF, it would still get stolen, but SOME people would pay for it, and SOME people paying for it, is way better than NO people paying for it, and still getting it.

This argument is moot anyways. The license prevents release of PDFs of the products. End of story. FFG can't release PDFs without a license that allows them to.

Just because they don't have the license doesn't mean they could not get the license and as far as we know there could very well be an ongoing discussion bewteen FFG and LFL. So we don't know if it is the end of the story.

Stay tuned. Interesting things can happen.

True... Disney may or may not be willing to revise the license. No license is ever "End of story."

Cubicle 7 was able to negotiate with the astonishingly historically uncooperative Tolkien Enterprises to get PDF back on the market for The One Ring RPG.

Though I doubt a PDF would happen, I would gladly pay another $20 or $30 for one (Listening Disney?) While it could never replace the actual book, It is so convenient to throw on my iPad for reference, or my online games it would be invaluable for not having to go away from screen to goto book.

I would note that FFG established their contract with LFL before LFL was purchased by WDW. Given the size of the Lucas businesses, it will take some time before they can go through all of the agreements that LFL made. MY hope is that they don't decide to pull the license at some point. Opening it would be great, assuming that doing so wouldn't compromise other agreements they have made.

Secondly, I don't have to bother downloading it, you can preview any pdf in your browser and it is stored in cache only for as long as your settings allow. In my case every time the browser closes. The scan is so bad, I wouldn't bother keeping it even though I *do* want a pdf of it.

Previewing the PDF in your browser still requires a copy to be downloaded to your temp files, which legally counts the same as downloading it and keeping it - it's still against the law and a breach of copyright.

Actually the court has ruled about a seven years ago, that something in your cache files is not the same as intentionally downloading. This was ruled for purely because of the fact that you cannot know what the contents of a web page are going to contain before you load the page.

This was a case regarding specifically the topic listed above in which a person was sent a link to a site that contained illegal porn, and at the same time the police were informed that the individual collected illegal porn. The individual fought the case and they ruled in his favor. See case: Pennsylvania v. Diodoro (I am an IT VP, so I tend to keep up on the legalities of information tech)

Intellectual Property Law Masters student (specialising in digital/internet IP law) in the UK, and we have no such distinction to my knowledge. That case also runs on the defendant not knowing what the file was before opening it in his browser, where as the above poster knew full well what he was opening - an illegal copy. He had the intention of checking it out, that's mens rea.

It is certainly possible in the UK that the law is different, but luckily that is not how the courts ruled it here in the U.S.. You do not need to be unaware of what you were looking at before hand, you simply need to not be accessing the files from the cache directly after you have viewed it in your browser. There is an argument that willfully deleting your cache to hide the evidence of a crime could be viewed the same as knowingly possessing, but at the same time, the argument has been won that automatic clearing does not count as willful attempts to hide evidence.

I would note that FFG established their contract with LFL before LFL was purchased by WDW. Given the size of the Lucas businesses, it will take some time before they can go through all of the agreements that LFL made. MY hope is that they don't decide to pull the license at some point. Opening it would be great, assuming that doing so wouldn't compromise other agreements they have made.

This is also my thought, that perhaps, post purchase, FFG could negotiate a change to the contract?

Contracts are amended all the time. The biggest hang up would be if someone else has PDF rights that they don't want to give up.

But we will see. Things are a changing at LFL. A year ago who could have predicted episode 7 would be in the works?

I would note that FFG established their contract with LFL before LFL was purchased by WDW. Given the size of the Lucas businesses, it will take some time before they can go through all of the agreements that LFL made. MY hope is that they don't decide to pull the license at some point. Opening it would be great, assuming that doing so wouldn't compromise other agreements they have made.

This is also my thought, that perhaps, post purchase, FFG could negotiate a change to the contract?

Who knows, but we can all hope.

Contracts are amended all the time. The biggest hang up would be if someone else has PDF rights that they don't want to give up.

But we will see. Things are a changing at LFL. A year ago who could have predicted episode 7 would be in the works?

If I remember my FLGS owner has a contact at FFG that mentioned something to the effect that a different company, possibly Electronic Arts but that could be way off base, had an exclusivity clause for producing digital media. I believe it goes back to the X-Wing games? Suffice it to say that online PDF sales weren't really a consideration at the time, but given the changes in information sharing... I'm not certain disney will even actively DO anything with the LFL companies, they aren't exactly broke, so why "fix" them.

I personally would love an electronic copy of the rules. I've already purchased 2 copies of the core book, and am loathe to shell out another $40-$60 (american).

Secondly, I don't have to bother downloading it, you can preview any pdf in your browser and it is stored in cache only for as long as your settings allow. In my case every time the browser closes. The scan is so bad, I wouldn't bother keeping it even though I *do* want a pdf of it.

Previewing the PDF in your browser still requires a copy to be downloaded to your temp files, which legally counts the same as downloading it and keeping it - it's still against the law and a breach of copyright.

Actually the court has ruled about a seven years ago, that something in your cache files is not the same as intentionally downloading. This was ruled for purely because of the fact that you cannot know what the contents of a web page are going to contain before you load the page.

This was a case regarding specifically the topic listed above in which a person was sent a link to a site that contained illegal porn, and at the same time the police were informed that the individual collected illegal porn. The individual fought the case and they ruled in his favor. See case: Pennsylvania v. Diodoro (I am an IT VP, so I tend to keep up on the legalities of information tech)

Intellectual Property Law Masters student (specialising in digital/internet IP law) in the UK, and we have no such distinction to my knowledge. That case also runs on the defendant not knowing what the file was before opening it in his browser, where as the above poster knew full well what he was opening - an illegal copy. He had the intention of checking it out, that's mens rea.

It is certainly possible in the UK that the law is different, but luckily that is not how the courts ruled it here in the U.S.. You do not need to be unaware of what you were looking at before hand, you simply need to not be accessing the files from the cache directly after you have viewed it in your browser. There is an argument that willfully deleting your cache to hide the evidence of a crime could be viewed the same as knowingly possessing, but at the same time, the argument has been won that automatic clearing does not count as willful attempts to hide evidence.

Does that apply in cases of copyright infringement, however, or just looking at illegal images? Otherwise, how would streaming a pirated movie, etc, from a website (there are many such websites) be illegal in the US, when the video is only going to the cache, not being downloaded? Streaming counts as downloading for the purposes of copyright law, and so opening a copy of a PDF is functionally no different.

I feel that the case you're indicated wouldn't work in cases of copyright infringement, because willingly accessing a pirated copy is an illegal act (it can come under indirect infringement in many cases), not just downloading it.