I suspect there are a few deep flaws in this game's combat system, but out of concern that I may be doing it wrong, I'm throwing open the door to what i call the headshot test.

It's rather simple: The guardsman is wearing his flak helmet. The commissar (a low level PC) shoots the gaurdsman in the back of the head, killing him with his bolt pistol with one shot.

Ideally, this SHOULD be the result 80-90 percent of the time. However, when we tested this, the number of guard fatalities was surprisingly low, using a RNG. But, to be sure we have not goofed, I'd like all of you who are interested to give it a whirl and see what you get.

The reason we used this particular test was that it is the most basic sort of shot that can be made, against the same sort of target that one might be shooting at in combat, in the game.

Assuming an unwounded Guardsman of average Toughness and a Commissar who rolls full damage with his bolt pistol, the Wound Effect result will be 10.

Damage 14 - Defence Value 4 (Flak Armor [Head] of 3 (-2 pen) + Tb of 3) = 10

A bolt pistol is rending so the relevant Wound Effect entry on Table 7-10 is:

"The edge nicks the target's temple, causing pain to shoot through his skull, forcing him to fight through the agony to find his balance. The target suffers Blood Loss (1) and is Dazed for 1 round."

As I mentioned to you elsewhere, this combat system is not designed to simulate a Commissar executing a Guardsman.

Assuming an unwounded Guardsman of average Toughness and a Commissar who rolls full damage with his bolt pistol, the Wound Effect result will be 10.

Damage 14 - Defence Value 4 (Flak Armor [Head] of 3 (-2 pen) + Tb of 3) = 10

A bolt pistol is rending so the relevant Wound Effect entry on Table 7-10 is:

"The edge nicks the target's temple, causing pain to shoot through his skull, forcing him to fight through the agony to find his balance. The target suffers Blood Loss (1) and is Dazed for 1 round."

As I mentioned to you elsewhere, this combat system is not designed to simulate a Commissar executing a Guardsman.

Fair enough, Manchu. But how about this:

The cell is dealing with an underhive gang, but their cover is blown. As the ganger draw knives, the cell's sniper, perched on a rooftop not too far away, brings the crosshairs in line with the lead ganger's head and pulls the trigger.

Let's assume he hits, and deals maximum damage (1d10+10 = 20). The unarmored ganger has 30 Toughness, so we subtract 3 damage, resulting in 17 Impact - Head. The target suffers 2 Fatigue and is Stunned for a few rounds.

The best hit possible from a Sniper Rifle to the unarmored head of a human being cannot kill in the current rules. This is an issue.

I suspect there are a few deep flaws in this game's combat system, but out of concern that I may be doing it wrong, I'm throwing open the door to what i call the headshot test.

It's rather simple: The guardsman is wearing his flak helmet. The commissar (a low level PC) shoots the gaurdsman in the back of the head, killing him with his bolt pistol with one shot.

Ideally, this SHOULD be the result 80-90 percent of the time. However, when we tested this, the number of guard fatalities was surprisingly low, using a RNG. But, to be sure we have not goofed, I'd like all of you who are interested to give it a whirl and see what you get.

The reason we used this particular test was that it is the most basic sort of shot that can be made, against the same sort of target that one might be shooting at in combat, in the game.

I'd like to point out that such an action wouldn't use the combat system - or at least any sensible GM I know wouldn't use the combat system for a coup-de-grace like that.

While executing a Guardsman shouldn't fall under the combat system, a sniper overwatch like I described should. As it stands right now, the best option for killing people is to dual-wield autopistols; it costs very little, and you get those gnarly +5 Wound bonuses.

All making a system more lethal does is force the GM to fudge more to keep your character alive.

All making a system more lethal does is force the GM to fudge more to keep your character alive.

Nope, it forces him to make more creative encounters. It forces players to think creatively or spent/burn fate when doing dangerous things like getting shot. And it enforces the sheer brutality of every single Warhammer RPG I played.

The cell is dealing with an underhive gang, but their cover is blown. As the ganger draw knives, the cell's sniper, perched on a rooftop not too far away, brings the crosshairs in line with the lead ganger's head and pulls the trigger.

Let's assume he hits, and deals maximum damage (1d10+10 = 20). The unarmored ganger has 30 Toughness, so we subtract 3 damage, resulting in 17 Impact - Head. The target suffers 2 Fatigue and is Stunned for a few rounds.

The best hit possible from a Sniper Rifle to the unarmored head of a human being cannot kill in the current rules. This is an issue.

But, give accurate weapons their 1d10 extra damage, and you get something a bit better (although no instakill); your average becomes 17, your max 27, with anything over 21 being pretty **** nasty (all making people unconscious plus serious consequences).

I would like to point out while there appear to be issues with sniping people in the head, the example presented is also pretty nonlethal under the old system.

1d10+5 Tearing, -3TB, means that 1d10+2 Tearing which means the commissar will be lucky to get an 8 on the and remove all the Guardsman's wounds (let's say 10), let alone inflict a fatal critical.

I would like to point out while there appear to be issues with sniping people in the head, the example presented is also pretty nonlethal under the old system.

1d10+5 Tearing, -3TB, means that 1d10+2 Tearing which means the commissar will be lucky to get an 8 on the and remove all the Guardsman's wounds (let's say 10), let alone inflict a fatal critical.

But still, in the system, it is a possibility for 2 shots to kill the guardsman, assuming maximal damage, which is the bolt pistols RoF. Sure, he's not doing it in one shot, but it's 1 attack. In this one, it takes a minimum of 5 shots to kill him (your max damage is 10, you need 4 other hits to get to 30), but the difference between that minimum and the average is less than 1 shot. This means it takes a minimum of 3 rounds for him to kill the guardsman, or 5 if he wants to do anything else like moving around.

All making a system more lethal does is force the GM to fudge more to keep your character alive.

Meanwhile, making even mooks immune to one shot kills is just plain not satisfying. I don't mind that my sniper doesn't always achieve a perfect one shot-one kill ratio, but when it's literally impossible for him to kill even a mook in one clean shot, there's no point in ever playing a sniper.

Snipers, being loners who ideally no one will ever see, are kinda hard to fit in to a typical roleplaying game.

Snipers, being loners who ideally no one will ever see, are kinda hard to fit in to a typical roleplaying game.

Assuming for a moment it's not a patently untrue non-argument you just made, why introduce sniper rifles at all then?

Habit?

For shooting people as part of the kind of group melee that RPGs do well, not for executing important characters without them ever knowing you were there, which they don't?

Snipers, being loners who ideally no one will ever see, are kinda hard to fit in to a typical roleplaying game.

Thats sort of true- but not quite.

I've had this talk with my players several times, a few of them wanting to play a sniper- but its a valid play style, same as "disguises, move silently, concealment" because often only a few players are going to have those in the game and the others won't.

What that means, on paper, is that a lot of players are going to be leaving the room when the sneakers decide to go sneaking and do their own thing. Snipers, seeing as we play with a 25*25 grid, won't get to maximize the potential of their riffle in most combats unless they "go 200 meters away, off the grid, and just roll to hit and damage every round with never actually participating in combat."

Not to mention the build collapses as soon as you go into any sort of closed location. But I usually explain to my players that the way talent works, a sniper doesn't have to carry around a sniper all the time- so he can snipe in some conditions, and others he'll have to live with the fact that he cant snipe in those conditions.

Snipers, being loners who ideally no one will ever see, are kinda hard to fit in to a typical roleplaying game.

So are metal-obssesed not-entirely-human priest-scientists or poor, mentally disturbed sods abducted at early age with mind tapping into the literal hell. Oh wait.

I consider it wrong to defend flawed mechanic by saying character concept who use them is hard to fit into the game. Also, problem is not only with snipers, but with any PC who want to be more crackshot than spray and pray guy.

All making a system more lethal does is force the GM to fudge more to keep your character alive.

Dark Heresy is lethal. You have Fate Points for a reason. Use them (and your head; i.e. get into cover) or die.

The cell is dealing with an underhive gang, but their cover is blown. As the ganger draw knives, the cell's sniper, perched on a rooftop not too far away, brings the crosshairs in line with the lead ganger's head and pulls the trigger.

Let's assume he hits, and deals maximum damage (1d10+10 = 20). The unarmored ganger has 30 Toughness, so we subtract 3 damage, resulting in 17 Impact - Head. The target suffers 2 Fatigue and is Stunned for a few rounds.

The best hit possible from a Sniper Rifle to the unarmored head of a human being cannot kill in the current rules. This is an issue.

But, give accurate weapons their 1d10 extra damage, and you get something a bit better (although no instakill); your average becomes 17, your max 27, with anything over 21 being pretty **** nasty (all making people unconscious plus serious consequences).

Accurate has no bonus damage in this Beta.

Plushy is right, the sniper issue is tougher than the Commissar one. I don't think the rules for the sniper rifle itself should be changed. The way I think about is, just giving someone a sniper rifle doesn't make them a sniper. It's the person that matters not the gun. One shot/one kill levels of accuracy takes specific training. And the DH2E beta admittedly currently does not support mechanics simulating that -- a couple of people have posted good reasons why that might be. It's not hard to imagine a Vindicare-like talent tree showing up later.

Returning Accurate to its old rules - bonus dice for DoS - would handily fix the issue.

This game obviously requires multiple wounds (hits) to take down even the lowliest of opponents. The Novice-class NPC requires 2 wounds to kill. I would argue that one of the beauties of 1st Ed was that most weapons (especially with righteous fury) could result in 1-hit kills. Not so here.

I'd like to point out that such an action wouldn't use the combat system - or at least any sensible GM I know wouldn't use the combat system for a coup-de-grace like that.

That's not the point though. The point is to distill the system down to the very most basic act you can do with it and see if it behaves in a logical manner.

Shooting someone in the head with a large caliber armor peircing round should do a lot more than:

"The edge nicks the target's temple, causing pain to shoot through his skull, forcing him to fight through the agony to find his balance. The target suffers Blood Loss (1) and is Dazed for 1 round." when rolling max damage.

Stop and look at this from the average player's view: Shooting a mook in the head and rolling max damage only stuns them.

In a Warhammer 40k RPG.

With a weapon that is supposed to be able ot blow the head off things far more potent than a mere guardsman.

I've alredy seen a few jump up and say 'But the previous edition didn't deal with this correctly either!' This is true, and was a problem with the previous edition. However, I'm not here to defend the mistakes of the previous edition, I'm here to call into question the issues of the currently proposed one.

I have seen some truly spectacular mental gymnastics to excuse the blatent flaws in this system already. Manchu here has insisited repetedly that the combat system should not be used to calculate damage against unaware or otherwise defenseless targets, missing the obvious problem that if GM fiat is required to, as an example, make a sniper rifle DO what a sniper rifle is SUPPOSED TO DO, then something is wrong.

I'll further toss in that I was reading through and saw someone comment that sniper rifles are are only used by people who like ot sneak and not take part in the combat, and that melee is the only thing RPGs do well.

There are some very chromed up street sams outside who would like a word with you.

This could be resolved also by adding a line to the Mooks & Elites' "Spectacular demise" line.

"Upon receiving a critical wound or taking damage equal or superior or twice their Defensive Value after reduction in a single attack [so around 10 for elites, 6 for mooks.]"

Even if the argument of "don't use the combat system on unsuspecting targets" is used, chances are the cell might have a sniper. I've had players approach the classic "show up alone and unarmed" obvious trap by having a buddy with a rifle on a nearby rooftop. When **** hits the fan and combat starts, that sniper rifle should be able to punch through somebody's head.

I'd like to point out that such an action wouldn't use the combat system - or at least any sensible GM I know wouldn't use the combat system for a coup-de-grace like that.

That's not the point though. The point is to distill the system down to the very most basic act you can do with it and see if it behaves in a logical manner.

Shooting someone in the head with a large caliber armor peircing round should do a lot more than:

"The edge nicks the target's temple, causing pain to shoot through his skull, forcing him to fight through the agony to find his balance. The target suffers Blood Loss (1) and is Dazed for 1 round." when rolling max damage.

Stop and look at this from the average player's view: Shooting a mook in the head and rolling max damage only stuns them.

Well, actually, rolling maximum damage (a natural 10) against a Novice or Elite NPC kills or incapacitates them (as long as the damage is enough to bypass their Defence), regardless of the weapon used. Unlike in first edition, there is no test to confirm Righteous Fury, so it's actually easier to one-shot mooks. Also, Novice NPCs don't use hit locations, although a GM could of course describe it as a bolt round blowing apart the NPC's head, or whatever.

Edit: And with Tearing, Bolt Pistols are going to one-shot their fair share of NPCs.

In a Warhammer 40k RPG.

That does rather cover a multitude of sins. I find myself wanting a Horus Heresy RPG.