Howdy

I got a chance to play in the DH BETA adventure run by FFG Tim at Gencon. We had fun. The good , the bad , and the ugly. The good was the new sector content. The bad was the departure from role playing skills, and the non compatible AP system. The ugly was the elimination of a stack of very pretty and pricy DH books as mechanically compatible. The deal breaker is the damage system. What our group has loved since the first edition DH Beta is the way that combat is dangerous and lethal. Guns, grenades, flamers, chain swords, and bolters kill people, so it forced the PCs to role play, use threats of violence, and go into combat with the upper hand or get a new bionic body part for the next adventure. We already have only war and deathwatch, we need combat to be dangerous so that undercover agents of the Inquistion don't have to carry las cannons to actually kill heretics. If you want to have everyone carrying basic and heavy weapons keep the Beta damage system and the days of anyone being under cover are over.

This is by far the best argument I have read thus far.

"Max TB5 for starting level characters is 4, max bonus is 9."

Though 9 seems extreme, I'm imagining only massive critters like Carnifexes and such would have such a high bonus, in which case causing fatigue instead of real damage still makes sense.

I'm totally for 'if damage - soak < Tb, take 1 fatigue.'

HowdyI got a chance to play in the DH BETA adventure run by FFG Tim at Gencon. We had fun. The good , the bad , and the ugly. The good was the new sector content. The bad was the departure from role playing skills, and the non compatible AP system. The ugly was the elimination of a stack of very pretty and pricy DH books as mechanically compatible. The deal breaker is the damage system. What our group has loved since the first edition DH Beta is the way that combat is dangerous and lethal. Guns, grenades, flamers, chain swords, and bolters kill people, so it forced the PCs to role play, use threats of violence, and go into combat with the upper hand or get a new bionic body part for the next adventure. We already have only war and deathwatch, we need combat to be dangerous so that undercover agents of the Inquistion don't have to carry las cannons to actually kill heretics. If you want to have everyone carrying basic and heavy weapons keep the Beta damage system and the days of anyone being under cover are over.

This is by far the best argument I have read thus far.

Not sure if I got this right...but my feeling is, that the beta wound system is more deadly regarding to lighter weapons...as they also make a +5 wound, even if only hitting with 1 damage.

It is a system that provides some use for lighter weapons, which I like very much.

I have yet to test the new combat mechanics with my party, as the last two sessions have been more roleplaying and investigating without anyone rocking the boat. But I have theory tested the dice rolls and the combat just feels awkward. I will admit here, right now, that I have every DH1.0 book and have never played but know of all the squeal series. And honestly, I feel the corebook is still the best in game mechanics and usability. My players only took two sessions and had all the concept down, it takes 10 minutes to re-roll a character if one dies and the weapons and armour system is basic and easy to use.

Combat is fluid, fast and lethal.

I simply do not see the need to throw out the wound and previous damage system in favor of 9 combat result charts. It feels almost forced, like they felt they had to have some new and very different mechanic.

I suppose I can summarize my entire view of the new book as needles added complexity.

A wound system without Unnatural Toughness or heck, even counting Toughness at all would be the best. Having an natural source of damage absorbtion is just expoitable when the stat gets raised to high.

Thats why I really like the new steps FFG is taking in the second edition. And in b4 the "it is like ping, ping, ping DEAD", it was and is so in DH right now with the insane amounts of TB and wounds an character can accumulate. Nothing happends for the first four or five solid hits then suddenly his wounds are depleted and it is a minus 8 on the critical hit chart and the character explodes.

The less toughness lowers damage he better I say.

I was looking through Koronus Bestiary last night, and it hit me that it would be impossible to fight a Yu'Vath Sandslime with the Beta 's wound system, since very few on the 'human-centric' wound effects could be applied to such a bizarre creature. SciFi frequently features critters that don't bleed/have recognizable anatomy/etc, things like living rock or metal, gas or liquid... How would you represent a warp-animated statue without 'hit points', for instance? Or a Catachan Brainleaf? Or a Warp Spectre?

I think hit-point-less 'narrative damage' was an interesting experiment, but ultimately unusable given the variety of potential opponents in the 40Kverse.

As a vehicle? ok I've got nothing.

It is still possible to kill something "instantly" if you get around 30 on the wound tables. Just because you can't use crit effects for some of the races, it doesn't mean that it is ultimately unusable. Remember, the old wound system wouldn't handle wound effects either, so in this case you are at the same spot.

I think hit-point-less 'narrative damage' was an interesting experiment, but ultimately unusable given the variety of potential opponents in the 40Kverse.

I completely disagree. Not about the current system being far, far too elaborate, slow to use, and inflexible, but about the HP thing.

Assuming the beta falls through completely on this, and either sticks with the current mess or reverts to the even worse HP system of old, we'll be replacing it with a simple system of cumulative characteristics damage.

Pretty much everything is derived from an entity's characteristics, whatever the entity is, so there's no weird hoops to jump through just because the entity has an unusual number of limbs or whatever. More, both the old and the new DH go about derived values in a very straightforward way, so it's not very complicated at all to apply and track damage and its effects this way.

I'm not saying it's perfect or anything. But... The alternatives I've seen & discussed with my friends are all worse in one way or another, and this system can't really afford to be worse in any way without it getting in the way of the game, whether it's the fiction (old DH) or the bookkeeping (new DH) we're talking about.

You could just use the -10 to -30 as the new critical damage chart in a expanded version and keep the other 10 points without any effect besides to wounds as positive hit points as previously.

For bigger opponents, you can use more than 10, which means it takes more damage to push them into critical effects.

I would keep the +5/+10 wound system though - feels like a good system, that also makes weaker weapons a little dangerous.

I was looking through Koronus Bestiary last night, and it hit me that it would be impossible to fight a Yu'Vath Sandslime with the Beta 's wound system, since very few on the 'human-centric' wound effects could be applied to such a bizarre creature. SciFi frequently features critters that don't bleed/have recognizable anatomy/etc, things like living rock or metal, gas or liquid... How would you represent a warp-animated statue without 'hit points', for instance? Or a Catachan Brainleaf? Or a Warp Spectre?

I think hit-point-less 'narrative damage' was an interesting experiment, but ultimately unusable given the variety of potential opponents in the 40Kverse.

I also totally disagree. The wound system is slow to use, and perhaps too complex (honestly, my PCs fight a lot of novices and elites, which cuts down on the bookkeeping considerably) but the old HP based system was far worse and I had already discarded before the beta emerged.

Describing damage on most unconventional foes merely requires a little creativity or you can simply not bother. Perhaps one of the benefits of being a metal-rock creature is that you ignore some critical effects, much like daemons. Alternatively, perhaps it oozes molten metal, maybe the spectre drops ectoplasm from its ghostly wounds, perhaps it fades partially out of existence, less real after being wounded, and thus weakened in some palpable way.

Much as the book suggests that critical effects to bionics still totally happen, merely the description changes, so too, you can do the same thing with almost any other circumstance.

Also, as already noted, the critical effects of DH1 have the same trouble, so if this is really a problem, it is not avoided by remaining stuck with the clunky system FFG inherited along with DH1.

I'd like to see an incremental critical system incorporating wounds and a critical threshold based on Toughness Bonus, severity of the Wound taken would be related to how much damage you've taken beyond your TB. It's been suggested already, but I think it would serve the intended purpose stated in the original Beta - to make your Wounds mean something - and would cut down on bookkeeping slightly. It would also allow fairly easy incorporation of existing 40KRP material, it would allow for pretty easy scaling and it would represent a compromise incorporating the old wound system and the new critical charts.

I'd really like to get rid of crit charts altogether. With DH1e we ended up treating all damage as crit chart damage. The beta system is maybe only half as clunky as that, but it's still too much.

A Tb threshold for just a handful of status effects like hit location used for mobility = slowed, limb used for attacking = disarmed or broken, body = stunned, head = dazed, combined with a flat -10 on characteristics is, I think, about as complicated as it can afford to be without getting in the way of actually playing the game.

We play DH biweekly, pretty much like clockwork, and most of us have been playing RPGs & Wargames for 20+ years. We're hardly strangers to memorising elaborate rules, or to checking books in a reasonably speedy fashion. But checking books in combat makes combat a pain, and memorising more than 1 page (at the very, very most) of wound effects is just not going to happen, ever. Which, as far as we're concerned, makes that kind of stuff hostile to us and an argument for switching to a more... Uhm.. A system designed to be played by regular human beings, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

EDIT: and yes, I have actually tried the beta rules now.

I got to thinking today, and decided to take a shot at modifying the damage system, not only to make it simpler, but also to reduce the page count needed. The overall goal was the make the system more like the Fatigue system in the Beta rules. If you understand how the basics of Fatigue and Fatigue Threshold work, this system should be simple to understand. There is a link below.

This is very rough. The damage chart isn't even closed to finished. It's just there to provide a general idea for the direction that the chart goes. There should also be one chart for each type of damage, rather than the one that I have written down right now and the 3(or 4?) per damage type in the beta rules right now.

Someone test this. I would do it myself, but that would require starting a lengthy PbP game since I don't have anyone in the area that I can drag to my place for a playtest. Suggestions are welcome of course, especially on the subject of the damage charts. And yes, I am aware that my wording in some cases is somewhat strange, but its expedient and gets the point across as quickly as possible.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lc4ithgQdu6rWysecR_ehhbZ1qdaIA3J3zeBoMH-wmo/edit

I'd really like to get rid of crit charts altogether. With DH1e we ended up treating all damage as crit chart damage. The beta system is maybe only half as clunky as that, but it's still too much.

A Tb threshold for just a handful of status effects like hit location used for mobility = slowed, limb used for attacking = disarmed or broken, body = stunned, head = dazed, combined with a flat -10 on characteristics is, I think, about as complicated as it can afford to be without getting in the way of actually playing the game.

We play DH biweekly, pretty much like clockwork, and most of us have been playing RPGs & Wargames for 20+ years. We're hardly strangers to memorising elaborate rules, or to checking books in a reasonably speedy fashion. But checking books in combat makes combat a pain, and memorising more than 1 page (at the very, very most) of wound effects is just not going to happen, ever. Which, as far as we're concerned, makes that kind of stuff hostile to us and an argument for switching to a more... Uhm.. A system designed to be played by regular human beings, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

EDIT: and yes, I have actually tried the beta rules now.

I think this is a matter of opinion. I'm in the same position as you (I've been running with the same group of one of the varient WHFRP systems) for the last 8 years with a group of very experienced players. We all love the crit charts as one of the things that makes all the games from this lineage unique. I don't think we've ever had an issue with using them and you don't have to memorise them, just leave one of the rule books with a page marker in it or leave a PDF open on a laptop at the right page. Its hardly rocket science. If anything I really miss the 'critical fumbles' from whfrp1

Besides, I feel the effects need to be treated as rough descriptions so the GM has the option to just wing something similar. This goes for creatures that dont meet the humanoid template. If the monster has no limbs or head just shift damage to the body, or if it has multiple limbs lessen the penalties for losing one. I know theres an arguement for RAW but if you can't be creative for the sake of narrative I really don't think you have any business running or playing a TTrpg

I wanted something different and ended up with a mix of DH2 beta and a Wound system.

Wound System v1

All wounds are noted seperately, healed seperately and healed naturally seperately. Wound Effects are applied immediately. No cumulative Wound Effects. Reaching 75%, 50% and 25% of total Wounds gives 1 point of fatigue. Each Serious or Critical Wound gives 1 point of Fatigue. Reaching 0 Wounds applies unconscious condition to the character/NPC.

Characters Wounds = 10 + Tb + Wb + Rank + 5/10 for being an Inquisitor (GMs discretion)

NPC types (Beta p. 282)

Type Wounds Hit Locations Spectacular Demise

Novice 10 + ½ Threat level No Hit locations 2 Serious or 1 Critical Wound/Righteous Fury

Elite 10 + Tb + Wb + ½ Threat Level Body only 4 Serious/Critical Wounds or 1 Righteous Fury

Master 10 + Tb + Wb + ½ Threat Level as Players -

Monsters 10 + Tb + Wb + Threat Level As Type As Type

Threshold Wound Type Wound Effect Healing

1-3 Damage Flesh wound No Effect Heals at 1 Wound / Hour

4-7 Damage Serious wound D10+Damage 1 Wound / 6 Hours rest

8+ Damage Critical Wound D10+Damage 1 Wound / 24 hour rest (Bed rest)

Righteous Fury Critical Wound 2D10+Damage As Critical Wound

Damage is after applying defense. Optional: For a more Characteristic driven System use 2+½Tb for Serious Wounds and 6+½Tb for Critical Wounds threshold.

All natural healing can be accelerated to double speed with a successful Extended Care - Medicae (I) Test.

OMG. That is all I can say after returning to dark heresy after being away the last two years. Here in sweden we had a very popular rpg that was basically basic role-play rules with d20 instead of d100. And it was quick, if somewhat unrealistic. Over the years suddenly there was a wind of change, rules needed to be realistic, tactical, etc. As such every aspect of the game was reworked in edition after edition, adding more rules, more complexity, and more factors to keep in check and track.

Combat rules became ever more complex with several layers of calculations to figure out what actually happened to a character when hit. All these changes, added a lot of time needed to play through a single round of combat, and in the end, it just lead to more absurd and unrealistic results, which in turn prompted the rule-makers to add even more rules, make more editions, etc. A bad cycle. I was happy in that I could rely on the fact that Warhammer Fantasy which was what I played at the time, remained somewhat quick and fast, not changing to much. It had its flaws, but at least you dealt with them easily enough through common sense, not by adding more rules and layers to the rules.

Then it happened. WFRP was redone in 3rd edition, and I abandoned the game I had been playing for 26 years. It just was not enjoyable anymore due to the severe changes ff did to the game. I took solace in the fact that my new favorite game, Dark Heresy/Rouge Trader remained faithful to the system that was quick and worked well in WFRP before 3rd edition.

And now I come back to find out, fantasy flight is shafting me again with severe changes to the rules, going down the route that is so familiar to me with swedish roleplaying games... I will be here in the forum to discuss, and see what happens. But from the very brief information I have gathered, I am sorry, Fantasy flight, you need to seriously take a step back and check what you are doing. If you want to succeed you REALLY need to listen to the players that has long time experience as both players and game masters, what works, and dont work. And also you need to consider most of all; Is what you are changing adding more fun to the game, or is it adding just more complication?

Exactly! What I think they should do is publicly release the rules in an unfinished state (let's call this a beta state, in honour of the alternative video format from the 1980s). Of course, to protect their intellectual property, they should only release it for a nominal fee, say $20. Concurrent to this they could run some sort of discussion group (to borrow from the ancient Romans, let's call it a forum ). My idea is that prospective consumers can buy this beta version and test it out with their friends, then go to the forum (which could be made available online to facilitate global interaction) and discuss their thoughts and ideas. FFG could then take these discussions and make changes to the beta version, perhaps in incremental releases. What do you think?

Having had a very strong reaction to the news of second edition, and after having talked to my friend who has the beta rules, who talk me through the changes; I think it is fair that I give my idea on how to speed up the damage rules a lot, based on my experience in what really does work, to have a quick and fluid game-play, that maintain action and intensity of combat.

First of all.

Whenever Damage > Defense Value, you inflict a wound.

Whenever Damage < Defense Value, you suffer nothing, but the pain of the impact etc (no rule effects).

A quick tweak to Righeous Fury allows for skill to play a part; Whenever you roll a double (33, 44, etc.) that is lower than the BS or WS Test you perform for the attack, you inflict Righteous Fury (the God Emperor helps those capable of helping themselves as well as those who are lucky). When you get a Righeous Fury, you inflict a Critical Wound.

Damage Effects are not applied for Wounds, ever. Instead, every time you suffer a Wound, you also suffer Bleeding (1) condition. This way you do not have to look up the table for damage every hit inflicted on a character. But wounds still count towards bringing you down rather quickly. The damage tables, if they really are necessary, should be supplemented with a sudden death table, that just states X points = Minor type of damge, X > another points = Death. And any kind of damage tables should really only be used for a Critical Wound. You DO NOT need an OBDUCTION REPORT for every hit on every character that takes part of combat. That is just unnecessary and slows down game play.

If there is one thing I have learned in all my years of GMing WFRP and in recent years, DH/RT, it is that anything that takes time through requiring looking up stuff in tables, wastes time. ANd wasted time = Bored players, which is equal to less fun.

Ok. That is working within the framework of the beta rules.

The absolutely best version would be to rewrite the rules. Along the guidelines; If Damage < Defense = No damage inflicted. If Damage > Defense = Damage inflicted. AND if Damage > Defense (x2) = CRITICAL WOUND. Quick, and easy. Save the obduction report for critical wounds that finishes a character off..

Having had a very strong reaction to the news of second edition, and after having talked to my friend who has the beta rules, who talk me through the changes; I think it is fair that I give my idea on how to speed up the damage rules a lot, based on my experience in what really does work, to have a quick and fluid game-play, that maintain action and intensity of combat.

So you're judging the rules without having actually used them? Not to mention your argument is grossly subjective.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by an obduction report. According to the Oxford dictionary, obduction is "the sideways and upwards movement of the edge of a crustal plate over the margin of an adjacent plate".

Sorry. I meant autopsy report (I wrote it in swedish due to being tired at the time). And I may be subjective, in what I wrote, but I know what works and what not works well to keep a game flowing at a good pace. I have the rules here now, having read through them, and actually done some combat testing between two characters. The rules as written in the current beta is fine in combat between two characters. It is however easy to see that when you start getting 5,6,7,10,20 involved characters, that combat will be slowed down quite a by the constant checking of the wound effect tables.

There can only be one objectivity on this topic: the beta's new wound system is great

Is that sarcasm? Or are you actually serious?

Is that sarcasm? Or are you actually serious?

Is that sarcasm? Or are you actually serious?

Would I ever be sarcastic ?

This wounds system is insane.

Yeah, i understand what's the goal, it's really realistic and more deep then the cold hp system. We all agree with it.

BUT.

It's not a mmorpg, it's a paper&pencil game! In a massive fights, with a large number of npc, undreds of bullets and effcts you will need an app to help you to remind and write down all those **** conditions as a storyteller. And i don't even want to talk about AP system: 4AP*Xnpcs that u Have to use to offer your player a proper and challenging fight.

The only solution is to use numbers and hp for "normal" and less important npc, and the New system for "Boss" npc.

My2Cents.