And, on the flipside, a player doesn't feel totally useless when their amazing natural one on the dice is effortlessly dodged by the Dire Avenger they're trying to take down.

But man do they feel useless when they are exploded by a flying piece of skull shrapnel, and have to burn Fate. as happened earlier today.

Or the effect that sends limbs and arms flying everywhere for 1d10 damage that was hilarious, but Elites can't possibly do that everytime they die

Version 1.5

My guess is that most of us play Dark Heresy for the deep, dark, complex & grim setting. I certainly do. I'm not playing DH for its mechanics. DHv1 mechanics had some high points and had some low points - but, in my opinion, they worked to deliver the setting - the daemons, the Inquisitors, the Radicals, the Redemptionists, the psykers, the Moritats, the Arbitrators, the Bolt Guns, the Space Marines, the aliens & the heretics. That's what I play DH for. I want to experience this incredible setting in the combat, in the interactions and in the investigations. I would love for the mechanics to WOW me, but they don't need to "wow" me - they need to workably deliver the setting.

My group has worked to fix what we felt were the biggest DHv1 problems with rules from Only War and with some of our own House Rules - and these tweaked DHv1 mechanics were generally pretty decent AND were compatible with everything ever published (or that I wrote) for DH.

I've been wanting what I now realize was a DHv1.5 update. Installing DHv2 into my current campaign is going to be a lot of work and, after that's done, what I'll be playing for is the setting. DHv2 mechanics need to be a LOT better than in DHv1 to justify the work and losing compatibility with everything published prior.

So having said all that - my group basically decided yesterday to take the plunge and switch in toto to DHv2. I'm excited kind of...I really hope it's all worth it. Wish us luck!

Well, if it's only on the beta forum that the consensus is largely negative, those who like it are doing the game a disservice by not posting here.

Interesting thing I spotted earlier - there's a thread about the beta on RPG.net, which seems to be largely positive towards the changes. I imagine that the divide is likely influenced by the fact that many established members here (who will generally be those who post first and most frequently) already have a vested interest in the pre-2ed rules, while those who typically avoid these forums do so because they don't much care for the existing rules (and thus have no interest in backwards-compatibility).

With regards to the updated rules and breaks in inter-game compatibility... FFG have been pushing to break out from the DH1rules for years. Black Crusade's development was full of good ideas that couldn't be implemented because they'd push the game too far from DH. The thought was always to leave the big changes until Dark Heresy 2nd edition (a hypothetical at the time) and use that opportunity for a clean break.

That sounds reasonable. If only I could see those good ideas in the beta...

I've not given the beta a proper look-through, and FFG and I parted ways when DH2 entered development (unrelated issues, not something I'm going to discuss), so I've not got answers to those questions, nor have I had the chance to form properly-informed opinions. I was going to be writing character creation on DH2, and the beta iteration does vaguely resemble my outline, but I never saw the game take shape.

...and FFG and I parted ways when DH2 entered development (unrelated issues, not something I'm going to discuss)...

My next questions are not intended to pry any farther than a "yes" or "no"...

Is this why the links in your old signature no longer work?

Do you think you might contribute any "fan-made" material in the future?

N/M.

Because the new edition isn't for us. It's to capture new players.

Welcome, ye new players, to Dark Heresy! Shiny and new, just for you!

What's that? Oh. No, no, no. Ignore those publications over there that also say Warhammer 40K Roleplay. They are from different lines known as Rogue Trader and Deathwatch and...what's that? Compatible? Erm...

Welcome, ye new players, to Dark Heresy! Shiny and new, just for you!

What's that? Oh. No, no, no. Ignore those publications over there that also say Warhammer 40K Roleplay. They are from different lines known as Rogue Trader and Deathwatch and...what's that? Compatible? Erm...

Exactly, and, more importantly, those competing lines not only have more content available for them, they are also still being published. It's one thing to make an edition change, at which point people who want new/currently supported stuff need to get the new version, it's another to try this when people don't have that extra incentive to compensate for the reduction (and guarantee of relative quality) in available material

-While I get that you're a fan of the system, if you can't recognize that DH had a few fundamental flaws, then you're kidding yourself. With the caveat that Reactions can only be used outside of your turn, when do you use a ballistic mechadendrite? Can an attack from counter-attack be parried? How about an attack made by an opponent interrupting your turn? When is someone considered to be in melee for the purposes of shooting? So many of the finer points of DH1's system are at best murky; a rewrite of the core mechanics was in order.

-While I will wait to make any real judgements of DH2, it at least attempts to resolve some of the issues of clarity from DH1. Sure, it creates new issues, but I can at least see that it has resolved the issues I listed above.

Everyone acknowledges that there are glitches in DH1 - that's to be expected from any newly-launched system. The general frustration on the Forums stems from the fact that those glitches could have easily been fixed with a straight-foward '1.5' update. Arbitrary changes like the badly rewritten weapon and armour stats and the slow, unwieldy Wound system in the Beta are not addressing existing glitches in DH1 ; they are just experimental changes for the sake of changing things- and they undoubtedly contain new glitches of their own...

With regards to the updated rules and breaks in inter-game compatibility... FFG have been pushing to break out from the DH1rules for years. Black Crusade's development was full of good ideas that couldn't be implemented because they'd push the game too far from DH. The thought was always to leave the big changes until Dark Heresy 2nd edition (a hypothetical at the time) and use that opportunity for a clean break.

That sounds reasonable. If only I could see those good ideas in the beta...

I've not given the beta a proper look-through, and FFG and I parted ways when DH2 entered development (unrelated issues, not something I'm going to discuss), so I've not got answers to those questions, nor have I had the chance to form properly-informed opinions. I was going to be writing character creation on DH2, and the beta iteration does vaguely resemble my outline, but I never saw the game take shape.

My comment was mostly a cheap rhetorical shot at the rules. Like I said earlier, I'm seeing quite a few good ideas in the beta rules... just nothing that'd justify trowing away the whole engine and introducing new problems to the ruleset rather than incorporating the changes into old rules and working on other quirks that keep arising.

I could, quite literally, take all the unambiguously good things in the beta and rework them into the Only War rules in a matter of days, a few weeks at most if I wanted to playtest it extensively. At the moment, I'm more inclined to do it than give 2e an honest chance, because I know it will work for me and my team.

I can understand disliking this update, but one important question begs to be asked. Would anyone really care enough to buy an updated version of Dark Heresy when countless people on these very forums have already done all the work for you, for free? People who are probably better at proofreading and internal consistency than FFG are.

Because the new edition isn't for us. It's to capture new players.

BYE

Can you really blame them for trying to draw in new customers? DH in its previous form is fairly exhausted, there's almost 20 books in the line (hell, maybe even more, I just don't care to count right now), and it's cross compatible with three other, extensively fleshed out lines.

There's nowhere to go with Dark Heresy in its current form, an update to draw in new players is going to be a hell of a lot more profitable and reasonable than sticking with what's worked previously.=

I never objected to the idea of drawing in new players, I objected to the statement about the game not being for us. I don't actually get how this will draw in new players anyway. What is going to happen to pull them in that all of the previous releases didn't? Are we talking about all the people who are aware of the system but don't like it? Because I'm not sure there is enough of those people who will also like the new system to warrant pissing off you existing fans.

I wonder how recruitment into the RPG hobby really works. I would imagine that a whole range of existing products compatible with the new shiny would be a more attractive prospect than what DH 2.0 seems to offer. But what do I know, a new recruit might not care about the other game lines. But if FFG really want to cater to this hypothetical new crowd, why not do even more radical changes? Something in line with the Star Wars RPG perhaps? That system seems idealy suited to new RPGers.

Anyway, I read through the Only War rulebook last night. Have had that book since release but not really looked at it (since I am mostly into DH). What a wonderful refinement of the 40K RPG system. It left me even more befuddled as to why FFG decided to go in the DH 2.0 direction. Such a missed opportunity.

With regards to new players, consider my otherwise-ignored other point from my last post: there are people out there who know plenty about 40kRP in its current forms, don't like those forms, but are intrigued by a new edition which is different to what has come before. Did it occur to nobody that there are fans of the 40k setting - who may already be roleplayers - who aren't fans of the current system?

Additionally, there are people (such as me and my gaming group) who are long-term players of all the 40k RPGs and are very excited by the Beta. For me, this is in no way restricted to new players.

Additionally, there are people (such as me and my gaming group) who are long-term players of all the 40k RPGs and are very excited by the Beta. For me, this is in no way restricted to new players.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat honestly. It's not like the backwards compatability is that hugely lacking anyway, it always took effort to transfer stuff from DH to the more modern systems, it's just takes marginally more effort now. Much less effort than should ever phase a GM who isn't ridiculously lazy.

I never objected to the idea of drawing in new players, I objected to the statement about the game not being for us. I don't actually get how this will draw in new players anyway. What is going to happen to pull them in that all of the previous releases didn't? Are we talking about all the people who are aware of the system but don't like it? Because I'm not sure there is enough of those people who will also like the new system to warrant pissing off you existing fans.

And people that don't like the current system won't find anything currently planned to their liking.

With regards to new players, consider my otherwise-ignored other point from my last post: there are people out there who know plenty about 40kRP in its current forms, don't like those forms, but are intrigued by a new edition which is different to what has come before. Did it occur to nobody that there are fans of the 40k setting - who may already be roleplayers - who aren't fans of the current system?

It baffles me how this beta can offer such people anything. At it's core, the new system is designed with the same set of principles in mind as the original DH - lots of randomness and charts, percentile roll-under base system, very lethal combat with gory special effects, generally low power level of characters etc. If the goal was to reach out to new players, surely it would have been better to actually diverge from the old design assumptions rather than try to recreate the same experience from scratch.

With regards to new players, consider my otherwise-ignored other point from my last post: there are people out there who know plenty about 40kRP in its current forms, don't like those forms, but are intrigued by a new edition which is different to what has come before. Did it occur to nobody that there are fans of the 40k setting - who may already be roleplayers - who aren't fans of the current system?

Well, yes, of course these people do exist. But much of the DH2 changes appears arbitrary and "change for the sake of change", rather than actual, well-thought-out changes that makes sense in context.

Who, specifically, is it supposed to appeal to? It isn't just about attracting people that didn't like the previous system. It's about attracting the people that didn't like the previous system and making them like this system.

I don't see why that would happen at all. What issues did people have with the DH1 system that has been functionally remedied by the DH2 system? And which people had these issues, what were those issues and how will DH2 specifically appeal to them more, compared to DH1?

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

If it's just about appealing to a "new crowd" that is perhaps daunted by the sheer amount of stuff for DH1 available, or the outdated age of the DH1 systyem, a revision of the pre-existing rules, a move to a new sector, and a new list of extensive, updated and perhaps divergent supplements would do that just as well.

But DH2 is a whole 'nother beast altogether. And from the sounds of it, it doesn't appeal at all to the old crowd, and I see now reason as to why it would pull a new crowd of people, other than people outside the loop feeling "Oh, neat, something new. I'll take this chance to start playing 40k RP, since it's the latest revision of the rules and I've been looking to get into it."

And those people could've been pulled anyway.

Yesterday, I talked to my Local game shop owner. He seemed to agree with me (And the vas majority of other posters on this forum!). In order for a product to succeed commercially with an edition change it must be notably superior to the previous ruleset AND at least somewhat backwards compatible (Think D&D 2 ed. to 3rd ed). A new Ruleset that is potentially inferior (Judgement still out on that but at least no better!) and lacks compatibility with previous edition is a direct set up for 4th ed. debacle! Overall, 4th ed was most definitely NOT a commercial success (Other than for Paizo!). My experience is that most new players to an RPG are recruited by people who ALREADY PLAY! Alienating you loyal and repeat customers is never a good idea in ANY business!

One of my friends mentioned what may have been the problem behind this whole thing:

And the funny thing, even though I would have been one to buy it....

Generally speaking, why someone buy a Dark Heresy 1.5?

A lot of people have already converted Dark Heresy to Only War and Vice Versa and all of that and their versions (Seem to) work great (though I've personally never tried them, I tend to shy away from homebrew in favor of official material)

The idea is that its a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" approach.

On the one hand, I am constantly berating FFG for republishing previous and copy pasted content. Which btw they did in this book, what with the inclusion of the word "Fettered" despite that not existing int he rules.

On the other, were asking them to copy paste and charge us 60$ for it.

Ultimately though, I am sorry to say, production costs on this book, if copy pasted, are likely not to be even CLOSE to 60$- especially with ALL of the art being reused.

One of my friends mentioned what may have been the problem behind this whole thing:

And the funny thing, even though I would have been one to buy it....

Generally speaking, why someone buy a Dark Heresy 1.5?

A lot of people have already converted Dark Heresy to Only War and Vice Versa and all of that and their versions (Seem to) work great (though I've personally never tried them, I tend to shy away from homebrew in favor of official material)

The idea is that its a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" approach.

On the one hand, I am constantly berating FFG for republishing previous and copy pasted content. Which btw they did in this book, what with the inclusion of the word "Fettered" despite that not existing int he rules.

On the other, were asking them to copy paste and charge us 60$ for it.

Ultimately though, I am sorry to say, production costs on this book, if copy pasted, are likely not to be even CLOSE to 60$- especially with ALL of the art being reused.

Well, if 1.5 improved upon the BC/OW rules as much as those improved upon the previous systems, I'd buy it for the rules update. That's before saying I'll probably buy it for new setting stuff alone.

Late to the party, but 1.5, definitely.

The beta has many good ideas, but all of the would have been better served being added to the OW rules, IMHO.

Certainly better than giving lasguns 24 shots...

I honestly don't see the huge backwards compatibility legwork. It takes about a minute of tweaking stats on a bit of gear to port it over from the old system to the new. Maybe five minutes if you want to cross-check things thoroughly for balance's sake.And really gear is some of the only stuff that HAS remained consistently backwards compatible. The Psychic Powers system has changed completely since Dark Heresy, the system of advancement has, ruling out porting over things like elite advances, and generally there's not a lot you can bring over without at least a little work.

I don't see how this system is any different. Is it that hard to tweak some numbers? You really should be doing it when moving things from DH to the more modern systems anyway.