Can we please not delude ourselves into thinking this poll has any meaning at all?

Of course it has meaning. If you mean FFG is unlikely to care about it, that's true. But the overwhelming consensus is that a 1.5 edition is preferred to this beta release. That means something, whether it ultimately impacts product design or not.

The overwhelming consensus from this forum. Where the loudest group is naturally going to be the naysayers. I would be very surprised if DH 2e wasn't a pretty significant success, even if FFG were stupid enough not to fix some of the glaring flaws that exist at the moment.

Can we please not delude ourselves into thinking this poll has any meaning at all?

Of course it has meaning. If you mean FFG is unlikely to care about it, that's true. But the overwhelming consensus is that a 1.5 edition is preferred to this beta release. That means something, whether it ultimately impacts product design or not.

The overwhelming consensus from this forum. Where the loudest group is naturally going to be the naysayers. I would be very surprised if DH 2e wasn't a pretty significant success, even if FFG were stupid enough not to fix some of the glaring flaws that exist at the moment.

That's a frightening thought!

Or if we started an online petition and gathered over a thousand signatures under it...

Sadly, that's been laughed off by several companies in the past, so pardon if I don't see that one as viable. The general publisher mentality is that there are always more customers... until there aren't. And then they start trying to blame people.

Having worked in the corporate world I know this to be largely true. If FFG were smart though; They might take this as an opportunity to avoid an embarrassing initial sales and thus avoid that round of finger pointing! 1.5 for me if that wasn't blatantly obvious!

I can understand disliking this update, but one important question begs to be asked. Would anyone really care enough to buy an updated version of Dark Heresy when countless people on these very forums have already done all the work for you, for free? People who are probably better at proofreading and internal consistency than FFG are.

I can understand disliking this update, but one important question begs to be asked. Would anyone really care enough to buy an updated version of Dark Heresy when countless people on these very forums have already done all the work for you, for free? People who are probably better at proofreading and internal consistency than FFG are.

I can back this up as well. I've certainly talked to players when discussing a possible second version of DH (this was before the beta) that had little interesting in picking up a 1.5 version because there wouldn't be enough different in it.

After all, your asking a group of players to buy another main rulebook for what might appear to them, little benefit.

I can understand disliking this update, but one important question begs to be asked. Would anyone really care enough to buy an updated version of Dark Heresy when countless people on these very forums have already done all the work for you, for free? People who are probably better at proofreading and internal consistency than FFG are.

Yep, I would in a heartbeat. I have all the other FFG 40k books and I'd like to see what stuff made it into a DH version of that. I would likely even try and port characters over to that system as we already mostly use OW/BC rules for talents. If this book makes it to print largely unchanged then I think that I will only be getting the ebook of the core rules as I am now partially invested in it.

I can understand disliking this update, but one important question begs to be asked. Would anyone really care enough to buy an updated version of Dark Heresy when countless people on these very forums have already done all the work for you, for free? People who are probably better at proofreading and internal consistency than FFG are.

Yep, I would in a heartbeat. I have all the other FFG 40k books and I'd like to see what stuff made it into a DH version of that. I would likely even try and port characters over to that system as we already mostly use OW/BC rules for talents. If this book makes it to print largely unchanged then I think that I will only be getting the ebook of the core rules as I am now partially invested in it.

Me too, I'd happily buy a 1.5 rulebook too as well. But what's worth considering is that we're heavily invested players (we're bothering to post of the forums for a start), players that are actually excited by what a 1.5 version would bring.

This would not always be true for the more casual player, a casual player that is more likely to be excited by a whole new version.

Look, if he asked the question you can't just tell me it doesn't matter when I answer it.

As it is I think most of my players would also get that book if I started using the system and at least one of them would regardless. We can't have a discussion on these boards about what everyone outside of the boards would do because by the nature of the conversation we can't know so its just guessing either way.

Look, if he asked the question you can't just tell me it doesn't matter when I answer it.

As it is I think most of my players would also get that book if I started using the system and at least one of them would regardless. We can't have a discussion on these boards about what everyone outside of the boards would do because by the nature of the conversation we can't know so its just guessing either way.

The point I was making was more of a general point, so I apologize for putting it after your quote as it's made it seem more directed than intended. I was never attempting to say your opinion doesn't matter.

I can understand disliking this update, but one important question begs to be asked. Would anyone really care enough to buy an updated version of Dark Heresy when countless people on these very forums have already done all the work for you, for free? People who are probably better at proofreading and internal consistency than FFG are.

Yes, absolutely, because that way it's official and everything you need is right there.

It's unfortunately the case that where there's one unofficial fan update, there's loads, and having a single official version where everything's in one place makes things so much easier than finding two of your players are using completely different sets of fan updates and house rules.

With regards to the updated rules and breaks in inter-game compatibility... FFG have been pushing to break out from the DH1rules for years. Black Crusade's development was full of good ideas that couldn't be implemented because they'd push the game too far from DH. The thought was always to leave the big changes until Dark Heresy 2nd edition (a hypothetical at the time) and use that opportunity for a clean break.

That doesn't mean the execution was especially sound, and judging by most of the responses, we don't want a lot of these changes.

With regards to the updated rules and breaks in inter-game compatibility... FFG have been pushing to break out from the DH1rules for years. Black Crusade's development was full of good ideas that couldn't be implemented because they'd push the game too far from DH. The thought was always to leave the big changes until Dark Heresy 2nd edition (a hypothetical at the time) and use that opportunity for a clean break.

That sounds reasonable. If only I could see those good ideas in the beta...

The overwhelming consensus from this forum. Where the loudest group is naturally going to be the naysayers. I would be very surprised if DH 2e wasn't a pretty significant success, even if FFG were stupid enough not to fix some of the glaring flaws that exist at the moment.

Well, how does the response of this beta compare to the response of the OW beta, or the SW beta? I imagine some of us were in two or all three of those.

I don't think comparing things to the Only War beta (the only other one I've been around for) is overly productive, though. Only War still largely adheres to the rule system we've been using since Dark Heresy launched, whereas this is more of a significant change. One of the largest reasons I imagine this particular attempt is drawing so much negative attention is largely because people naturally hate change. This is a huge change. Only War was a minor one.

Not to say that I don't think complaints about this system are legitimate (I have a **** lot of my own, anyway), but people reacting poorly to change isn't a new phenomenon.

Well, if it's only on the beta forum that the consensus is largely negative, those who like it are doing the game a disservice by not posting here.

With regards to the updated rules and breaks in inter-game compatibility... FFG have been pushing to break out from the DH1rules for years. Black Crusade's development was full of good ideas that couldn't be implemented because they'd push the game too far from DH. The thought was always to leave the big changes until Dark Heresy 2nd edition (a hypothetical at the time) and use that opportunity for a clean break.

Trying to keep calm here... If the intention of ffg was "always" to "break free" of the DH1 rule system completely than they are...sadly misguided (not what I was originally wanting to say obviously!). They have produced four other working products that all work on the same basic game mechanics and are at least somewhat compatible. To make a "clean break" would be to court a marketing disaster and worse still to do it willingly! Did FFG hire people from WotC who bungled 4e? Or, are they just so arrogant as to believe the masses (That being their loyal customers!) opinions are irrelevent in the face of their "Intellectual superiority "? I have seen this attitude in both the corporate world and in gaming a number of times now. It almost always ends in an unmitigated disaster! 40k is a niche product and forcing customers choose between product lines will only reduce the bottom line across the board. If they wanted a "clean" break they should have done a 40k unified ruleset that would have applied across the board rather than this! (Although that didn't work out so well for Wizards either!) Don't get me wrong..A superior new edition with cleaner rules and better play experience (Such as the change from 2nd ed to 3rd ed. D&D) than it could work! But this ain't it!

To be fair, positive comments don't do a ton to help the design process. On the flip side, neither does aimless bitching. Constructive criticism of what needs to be changed is what needs to be happening, and there's a decent amount of that going amidst the cries to lynch FFG.

My point is more that I've only seen two people who think the system is a good replacement for DH1. Everyone else thinks major overhauls are needed in at least one area. Maybe there are hordes of people who love the beta and are inexplicably not saying so. If they're not posting, no one even knows they exist. In which case, they become irrelevant. The negative consensus of the beta may only be on the boards, but where else is this information going to be gathered from?

@Radwraith

-Weren't they under contract to produce the expansion systems using those roughly compatible systems? I coulda sworn it was pretty well known there would be multiple lines using the same core mechanic.

-While I get that you're a fan of the system, if you can't recognize that DH had a few fundamental flaws, then you're kidding yourself. With the caveat that Reactions can only be used outside of your turn, when do you use a ballistic mechadendrite? Can an attack from counter-attack be parried? How about an attack made by an opponent interrupting your turn? When is someone considered to be in melee for the purposes of shooting? So many of the finer points of DH1's system are at best murky; a rewrite of the core mechanics was in order.

-While I will wait to make any real judgements of DH2, it at least attempts to resolve some of the issues of clarity from DH1. Sure, it creates new issues, but I can at least see that it has resolved the issues I listed above.

@Vaeron

I would contend that most people haven't had a chance to actually test it. I sure haven't. And about the closest time I can convince my gaming group to even try it is on the order of months from now (we want to run SR5 first, and aare in the process of wrapping up a M&M game).

I would say I'm not negative about it, but until I've played it, I will try to not swing too far one way or another. Its obvious some changes need to be made, but I do at least think the needed changes can be made without a complete rewrite (i.e. I can accept the bulk of how much of the systems are presented).

@Radwraith

-Weren't they under contract to produce the expansion systems using those roughly compatible systems? I coulda sworn it was pretty well known there would be multiple lines using the same core mechanic.

-While I get that you're a fan of the system, if you can't recognize that DH had a few fundamental flaws, then you're kidding yourself. With the caveat that Reactions can only be used outside of your turn, when do you use a ballistic mechadendrite? Can an attack from counter-attack be parried? How about an attack made by an opponent interrupting your turn? When is someone considered to be in melee for the purposes of shooting? So much of the finer points of DH1's system is at best murky, a rewrite of the core mechanics was in order.

-While I will wait to make any real judgements of DH2, it at least attempts to resolve some of the issues of clarity from DH1. Sure, it creates new issues, but I can at least see that it has resolved the issues I listed above.

Point 1: Obviously, I don't know the specifics of the contract.

While I am a fan of the system I do recognise it is not flawless! for your specific rules questions, here is my take based on the most current (Prior) iteration of the rules: If the line that a reaction can only be taken when it is not your turn then a little creative thinking is required: Your ballistic mechadendrite is used to return fire when you are attacked either in melee or ranged combat. For counter attack; your turn technically ended when your opponenent parried your attack so if you have a reaction remaining you could use it (A character only normally gets one reaction per turn). Of course the easiest answer would have been to remove the "can only re used during your turn" line. Either that or the Gm could simply say 'no' to many of the above mentioned examples. In all cases you example would at most require that the system be "tweeked" as it has been as the system has evolved through the current OW iteration. I don't doubt that the system could be improved... If it couldn't no Gm would ever need or want "house rules". It just did not "need" to be completely rewritten!

Another core flaw with DH was that it provided a means for players to fundamentally tell the GM what happens as a result of a test. By succeeding on a dodge, you can essentially say to the GM "no, you miss, because I dodge." Since all it took was a single success, there was little in place to stop this.

Now dodging is effectively an opposed test. More DoSs on the hit make it harder to dodge. A GM essentially now does have the power to control when an attack does hit, and when it does not. This is generally a good thing.

And, on the flipside, a player doesn't feel totally useless when their amazing natural one on the dice is effortlessly dodged by the Dire Avenger they're trying to take down.

I love the Calixis sector and could be buying fluffy books about that setting forever. I also love the compatibility of the five 40K RPG systems. DH 2.0 leaves me cold and confused. Some form of DH 1.5 will be my choice for the future. Sorry FFG, no more money from me (except the fortune I will spend on X-wing stuff).

Breaking away from the existing rule set would be fine and it actually works with character creation and the investigation mechanics. The problem is that the changes to gameplay don't really add anything to an already playable game, the new rules complicate combat for the sake of being different.
I find it kind of odd, actually, if FFG really wants to break away from the old Black Industries ruleset why did they hold on to the percentile system of all things? What was the philosophy there?