The only potential issue with Linked is that I don't believe there are any Linked personal scale weapons... but it's not necessarily broken on its own. With Linked 1 they could get one more hit in against the same target. The real problem is that Linked appears to bypass soak for the second hit, just adding damage on top of the total rather than being treated like a second attack.

That is incorrect. The damage of each hit is reduced by soak/armor.

Don't know how I read that wrong. Yes, the entry refers to additional hits and all hits are subject to soak.

The Linked quality in every other case symbolizes two weapons being joined together so that they can both hit them together, like a double-barreled weapon. I think that translating to a double weapon in melee makes perfect sense, especially given the consideration that I already added the "it isn't easy to use this weapon" caveat in the form of the Unwieldy quality, rather than the dual wield penalties. Having BOTH would be too much, and having neither wouldn't make it different enough from just dual wielding for me to like it personally.

I do see where you are coming from but I think you've miss-understood what a linked weapon is RAW. Your example of a double barreled shot gun is correct but your extrapolation to a weapon with two blades in opposite directions is incorrect. With the shotgun the barrels are side by side facing the same direction, you pull one trigger and both barrels go off at the same target, with the other you have to swing twice to hit the same target with both ends. A double bladed weapon is "linked" only in that the two ends are together nothing more.

Below is a vid of a linked .50 cal MG, they fire together at the same target as if they were a single weapon, note at around 0.52ish he has to re-cock both individual guns.

Now lets go back to my previous video of the guy with the Bo Staff and look at what is different:

Although his attacks are very quick and he uses both ends of the weapon they are individual actions not linked actions. There are of course other types of attacks but they will all be individual attack because you have to bring the opposite end of the weapon around to make them.

The Linked quality in every other case symbolizes two weapons being joined together so that they can both hit them together, like a double-barreled weapon. I think that translating to a double weapon in melee makes perfect sense...

No...no it doesn't, the double-barrelled weapon idea just makes it worse. You can reiterate all you like, but a) it's not grounded in how such a weapon could realistically be used, and b) mechanically it's just overpowered, even with the drawbacks.

How does someone attack two seperate targets with this double-bladed weapon? With Linked you would only be able to attack one target. Wouldn't dual-wielding better simulate such a weapon? Wouldn't you want to be able to attack two different targets with such a weapon?

Walk me through your logic of why linked makes more sense. I could be missing something, but IMO it wouldn't be any easier to hit twice with this weapon than with two separate weapons. I'd still suggest you ditch unwieldy and linked and just follow the dual weapon rules. Though I'll admit having to have a high brawn and agility to really use this is a step in the right direction.

There are a few reasons why I think linked makes sense given this context.

1. It makes a similar, yet still different, alternative to regular dual wielding. Rather than just increasing the difficulty like with regular weapons, it requires a high agility to use without putting yourself or your allies in danger of getting hurt. Doing it with Dual Wielding would not do this, unless I took the Challenge idea that someone presented. That would effectively be doing the same thing, but while adding to the difficulty and upgrading it together, instead of having the possibility of upgrading multiple times (or not at all if you have a lot of agility). It might be easier to hit with this weapon, but it is restricting, demanding, and without proper stats, dangerous, instead of just stacked on difficulty.

2. The linked quality in ranged weapons is easy to interpret, as either double-barreled weapons or as weapons like the one you showed in the video. Totally cool. But, with melee weapons, there's only two things that I could interpret as "linked" weapons. Either double weapons like this, or weapons that have multiple blades side by side, like Kadajj's katana from Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children. While that would also make sense to a certain degree, that wouldn't be nearly as commonly sought out to do from players, I'm guessing. So, this is also my own personal attempt at bringing Linked into the melee weapon department. If there was a more accurate or widespread example of a linked weapon, I wouldn't do it this way. But this effectively works much like how dual wielding would work, but with one weapon instead and with a slightly different way of accruing penalties.

3. As far as I can tell, it would not be any stronger or weaker than just wielding two vibroswords. It is just a different way of doing it that, i think, fits the concept more thematically.

4. I do believe that Linked, being unable to target more than one person, does make sense. Watch the Darth Maul vs. Obi Wan and Qui-Gon fight. Whenever Darth Maul was on the offensive and actively attacking them, he would only focus on one at a time. That seems to synchronize with what the weapon would be good at; swarming them with attacks from all sides. Judging from the bo staff video, that would make sense with less deadly weapons as well. He actively blocks attacks from when both are there, but that isn't what you do when you make your attack action anyways. The Defensive quality and talents can symbolize that. When on the offense, he doesn't actively attack both. He tries to isolate and dominate one while simply fending off attacks or putting them out of commission by kicking them backwards or by getting them apart from each other.

I would think the best example of a melee weapon with the Linked quality would be a flail with two or three heads.

I would think the best example of a melee weapon with the Linked quality would be a flail with two or three heads.

I suppose that would be a good example, but I'm not sure how popular those would be in Star Wars XD.

IMO buy 2 Vibro swords, use rules for 2 Vibro swords including all dual welding rules, tell everyone to visualize the swords being connected.

Only star ship weapons can be linked so just cross that out.

IMO buy 2 Vibro swords, use rules for 2 Vibro swords including all dual welding rules, tell everyone to visualize the swords being connected.

Only star ship weapons can be linked so just cross that out.

That was my first idea, but with so many other options, and with my incessant need to make custom content, there's no way I'm going to take this route unless it is the only one open. .

And where in the book does it say that only Starship weapons can be linked? Just because they are the only ones that ARE linked doesn't mean that is the truth at all. I thought the theme of this game was "Yes, but..."

It is going to take more than you saying so to convince me otherwise. Everyone else has brought up some valid points that I have been considering and mulling over, but just telling me "No you can't do that because" isn't going to convince me otherwise. By all means, if you want to do it that way, go for it. I know that I'm not, though.

IMO buy 2 Vibro swords, use rules for 2 Vibro swords including all dual welding rules, tell everyone to visualize the swords being connected.

Only star ship weapons can be linked so just cross that out.

That's the way I would do it.

Seems to me that I've seen double weapons used against more than one opponent at a time, but maybe that is just me. If all you're going to do is focus on one opponent I can see what you are doing. Whether or not it balances out against dual-wielding, though, I remain skeptical. It is better in that it doesn't really have any negatives compared to dual-wielding and still gives the benefits. Your Unwieldly penalty isn't really much of a penalty in that it only stops certain characters from taking full advantage of this weapon. If you meet the requirements it is a better choice than dual-wielding and that doesn't sound good. So while I understand what you are trying to do, I don't necessarily agree with it.

I would think the best example of a melee weapon with the Linked quality would be a flail with two or three heads.

Linked get it Link ed like a chain link...

Seriously though this is a good example but even so it would likely just have a single damage rather than two or three separate ones.

But back to Endrik...

The problem with using the Linked quality is that you're assuming that if you hit with one end you're automatically going to hit with the other end. This just isn't the case. The second hit is in no way guaranteed because you still have to swing the weapon 180* or more to strike the same target and during that swing your opponent has an opportunity to block, parry or dodge. Your example of the (highly choreographed) fight with Maul shows exactly what I'm saying, Q(whatever) and Obi parry and dodge each swing of that double Lightsaber, and when Q gets skewered it's not by both ends. Each swing is an attack and the Linked quality applies only to weapons that make a single attack together, not separate attacks.

Of course it's going to be up to you/you're GM but I can almost guarantee that when the double weapon rules come out the Devs will not be using the Linked quality so house rules this at your peril...

I'm sure that this interpretation won't make it in when/if they add double weapons into the game, but IF they do do something like this, I reserve the right to say "I told you so!"

Keep in mind that if you have a whopping 4 in agility, your brawn (which is what the skill and damage of the check is still based on) is going to be lackluster without cybernetics or lots of Dedication.

Also, let's not forget that the Linked quality does NOT ensure a second hit automatically. It STILL requires two advantages to activate that second hit; the exact same amount as the Dual Wield second hit trigger and the Auto-Fire hit trigger.

Here's the only differences between using Dual Wielding vs. Linked + Unwieldy:

DW: Brawn and Melee vs. 3 Difficulty. 2 Advantages triggers a second hit against primary target OR another engaged target.

L+U: Brawn and Melee vs. 2 Difficulty. Agility of 1, 2, or 3 upgrades check by 3, 2, or 1 respectively. 2 Advantages triggers a second hit against primary target ONLY.

For typical Dual Wielding, Agility is not a factor at all; JUST Brawn. I feel like that's quite impossible given the complexity of weapons like this. A massive Houk or something with 2 Agility could use this weapon better than someone that is limber, but has 2 Brawn.

For my interpretation, Agility IS a factor, as well as Brawn. A massive Houk with only two agility could certainly deal more damage with the weapon, but they run the risk of hurting themselves, their allys, or their equipment (with those upgraded Despairs). A limber dude with only 1 or 2 Brawn but at least 4 Agility certainly wouldn't have the stopping power to deal as much damage as that Houk, but at least he could use it without killing himself.


Man, if you think *THIS* has been controversial, just wait until I bring the WH40K Chain Swords on over. Auto-Fire melee weapons?! DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUN!

Did you change Unwieldy some where I missed? I thought it had Unwieldy 3 which meant an Agility of 3 had no modifier?

That being said, those goals are not that hard to reach. I see characters start with a 3 in both Brawn and Agility often. And as i said, it is only a detriment while you do not meet the requirements, once you do it is better, all the time, every time. Unlike dual-wielding which always imposes the same penalty even once you get better. So while a character using two vibro-swords is improving his stats and dual-wielding he will get better but still have the same modifiers. A character using your double-bladed vibro-sword and improving his stats and using your linked weapon will be better off at a certain point. So it is a better choice at that point, even for the first character, because why should he suffer a penalty when he doesn't need to?

I am pretty sure FFG is not going to treat double weapons as having linked. How does this double bladed vibrosword fire? Because the RAW only talks about linked as in terms of ranged weaponry like laser cannons in its example.

You may have mentioned it was two handed before your second update on the stats, and that description was missing from it.

It is extremely, and I mean extremely hard to whip a staff/bo/halbred around to hit with the other end as part of one attack in combat. Don't belive me, go find a dojo that does weapon sparring and have them give you a go.

As mouthymerc said, this is creating something way better then dual wielding. You will have to compensate for that with linked everything so the other people in your group won't have to suffer the dual wielding drawbacks. Bascially all you are saying is dual wielding rules don't make it as an attractive option in this system and trying to get away around it.

Personally if you want to keep it that way, I would bump the unwieldy up to 5 to make it something you really need to invest in character creation to use. Getting a 4 in a stat at start is not that harsh, but getting that 5 is causing them to think more about it at the cost of being better rounded.

Okay, first I'd like to point out that you are just being coy now. Yea, the linked quality in RAW has only applied to ranged weapons, but the entry makes no mention of it being restricted to Ranged or Gunnery, and the entry mentions nothing about ranged attacks or blasts. Just "Hits." I request a certain level of imagination for this interpretation.

I may not have explicitly mentioned that it was two handed in the entry, but I know I mentioned it a few times in other places. Plus, I mean, I thought that would be pretty self explanatory. Even if it wasn't right there in the rules, I feel like that kind of just comes with the territory, considering how awkward the weapons are to use.

As for the ability, in the first iteration I believe I had 3, but I raised it to 4 in my 2.0 version later on in the thread.

But Merc/DeadInk, I do see your points about it potentially being better, but you are forgetting that all of the experience that you are spending to increase your Agility to negate that Unwieldy penalty is all experience that you aren't spending on your Brawn to actually add to your attack dice, as you would be doing for regular dual wielding. So while you may reduce the penalty, your overall dice pool won't be as high without some serious work.

Let's take two typical humans with +15 EXP from obligations (the most possible, as long as their group had 15 starting each), Bob and Jeff.

Bob wants to dual wield. He spends 120 experience to get his Brawn to 5. He then spends 5 exp on X useful tier 1 marauder talent or a skill.

Jeff wants to use my Vibrostaff idea. He wants to have as few penalties as possible, so he spends 70 exp to get his Agility to 4 and 30 EXP to get his brawn as high as he can, to 3. He then spends those 25 other Exp points on some other stuff, like skills or talents.

With two ranks in melee each, here would be their basic attack pools against normal dudes.

Bob: YYGGG PPP
Jeff: YYG PP

See? Sure, he doesn't have to roll against ONE extra Difficulty dice while using this staff. But to do so, he has to sacrifice TWO green dice at creation. I believe that could be a fair trade off, since less positive dice mean less chance for a double hit anyways, since linked weapons do not automatically hit a second time unless you spend advantages . Now, what if Jeff wouldn't mind a small penalty, and goes for 4 brawn and 3 Agility instead? Then, Jeff would have:

YYGG RP

In this case, he gives up one green dice and doesn't go up against 3 difficulty. BUT, he instead has to deal with that Despair chance against EVERYONE he fights; not just dudes with Adversary. That despair could make him hurt his weapon, himself, or any unfortunate friends that might be tangled in the melee.

Here's the pros and cons that each one has, as far as I know.

Dual Wielding:
+Does not introduce despair
+Does not require two high stats to use effectively

+Can hit multiple targets

+Can use different weapons for different situations

+Can choose to not use both weapons if needed.

+Count as two different targets for sunders and disarms

-Increases Difficulty by 1; cannot be avoided.

-Each weapon must be purchased and upgraded independently

Double-Sword:

+Penalties can be alleviated completely

+Weapon upgrades apply to entire weapon, and must be bought only once.

-Can introduce Despair

-Requires two stats to use effectively

-Can only hit a single target (though keep in mind that a group of minions IS a single target, so you can still go crazy against cannon fodder!)

-Always incurs penalty if stat isn't high enough

-Counts as one target for sunders and disarms.

But, I do see where you guys are coming from. And, if I were to use the same rules for Lightsaber Staves, I have to consider that they could use Agility and just stack everything into it and essentially dual wield against PP. So, at this point, I'm considering four options.

1. Stick with this item as I have it now.
2. Increase the Unwieldy ability to 5, instead of 4. This would be a pretty extreme penalty, though, and I'm somewhat hesitant to make it this extreme.
3. Reduce Unwieldy to 3, remove Linked, and have it work with regular dual wielding stuff. This would potentially add Despair while having a difficulty that is still keyed at 3 instead of 2. It also still has that "you still kinda need two stats" thing.

4. Keep Unwieldy at 4, remove Linked, and have it work with regular Dual Wielding stuff. This again branches into the "a whole lot of penalties" territory and I'm hesitant to do this.

In any case, I really want to keep Unwieldy to keep the aspect of the "you need Agility to use this without hurting yourself" aspect. I'm just not sure what the best course of action would be. Which of these four things would you suggest?

Honestly I'd go with #3. i like the Unwieldy idea, but not the Linked.

I'd suggest just dropping both Unwieldy and Linked, and give it a Cumbersome rating of 3 to reflect how generally unwieldy such weapons are, and just use the existing dual-wielding rules. It's a hell of a lot simpler, and doesn't require an extra house rule to justify a house rule, which tends to be a very slippery slope, especially when there's a much simpler option available.

A quarterstaff is easier to use as a double-weapon, partly due to greater surface area to be grabbed without risk of causing injury, and generally being lighter than a pair of metal blades. I've done some weapon sparring in years past, and a double-bladed sword would be a nightmare for most people unless it had a greatly exaggerated hilt, which would only add to how heavy and unwieldy the thing would be. A Scottish claymore is difficult enough to use due to it's size and mass which would be about on par with a double-bladed sword; it's a perfect example of a melee weapon with the Cumbersome quality.

Double-bladed lightsabers would get a bit of a pass in regards to Encumbrance, since the business ends of the weapon are weightless, though it's even more dangerous given the business ends can cut through metal. If you watch the Darth Maul fight in TPM closely, you can catch a few instances where Ray Park's hands slipped off the hilt and appear to be touching the energy blades of his double-bladed lightsaber. Not surprising since he was generally using staff techniques and those include moves that require a broader grip on the staff than a double-bladed lightsaber would typically allow.

3. Reduce Unwieldy to 3, remove Linked, and have it work with regular dual wielding stuff. This would potentially add Despair while having a difficulty that is still keyed at 3 instead of 2. It also still has that "you still kinda need two stats" thing.

I'd add accurate (when dual wielding) because I think you have made a good case for it being somewhat easier to hit with a staff type weapon.

Before people start in on the it shouldn't be better than just two vibro-swords, keep in mind: this weapon is really obvious and probably not allowed into many civilized places. It also always takes up both hands.

I'd suggest just dropping both Unwieldy and Linked, and give it a Cumbersome rating of 3 to reflect how generally unwieldy such weapons are, and just use the existing dual-wielding rules. It's a hell of a lot simpler, and doesn't require an extra house rule to justify a house rule, which tends to be a very slippery slope, especially when there's a much simpler option available.

A quarterstaff is easier to use as a double-weapon, partly due to greater surface area to be grabbed without risk of causing injury, and generally being lighter than a pair of metal blades. I've done some weapon sparring in years past, and a double-bladed sword would be a nightmare for most people unless it had a greatly exaggerated hilt, which would only add to how heavy and unwieldy the thing would be. A Scottish claymore is difficult enough to use due to it's size and mass which would be about on par with a double-bladed sword; it's a perfect example of a melee weapon with the Cumbersome quality.

Double-bladed lightsabers would get a bit of a pass in regards to Encumbrance, since the business ends of the weapon are weightless, though it's even more dangerous given the business ends can cut through metal. If you watch the Darth Maul fight in TPM closely, you can catch a few instances where Ray Park's hands slipped off the hilt and appear to be touching the energy blades of his double-bladed lightsaber. Not surprising since he was generally using staff techniques and those include moves that require a broader grip on the staff than a double-bladed lightsaber would typically allow.

See, I'd be inclined to do this, but you literally said that "Such weapons are unwieldy" in your description of why it should have Cumbersome instead ;P.

I do see that the weapon would be heavy, but I factored that in by just giving it a high Encumberence instead. That negates the whole "Agility is important with this weapon" factor, and there's no reason that I can think of for someone with 1 Agility to be able to use this weapon without severe injury happening sometime. So, I'm much more inclined to keep this new quality, since it isn't complicated or hard to deal with.

I could see the Accurate thing maybe, but I'm hesitant to give it any more buffs, since the fact that you only have to spend credits on attachments once to get them on both sides is plenty of boost for it, I think. You could easily get the Accurate quality on it, though, since the Balanced Hilt attachment does just that. I could see a special, expertly built version coming with it built in automatically, but with reduced Hard Points.

Okay, so, after much (quite fun, honestly) debate, here's the final product!

Double-Bladed Vibrosword

Skill: Melee (Requires two hands)

Damage: +2

Crit: 2

Range: Engaged

Encum: 7

HP: 3

Price: 1750 Credits

Rarity: 6

Special: Pierce 2, Vicious 1, Defensive 1, Double, Unwieldy 3

Double: This weapon always uses the rules for Dual Wielding when fighting with it.

Unwieldy: Must have an Agility equal to rating, or increase the difficulty equal to the difference to all checks made with the weapon.

See, I'd be inclined to do this, but you literally said that "Such weapons are unwieldy" in your description of why it should have Cumbersome instead ;P

I mention it because the Cumbersome quality already covers things like weapons being too difficult for someone of insufficient strength to properly use because of the weapon's mass.

I'd suggest just dropping both Unwieldy and Linked, and give it a Cumbersome rating of 3 to reflect how generally unwieldy such weapons are, and just use the existing dual-wielding rules. It's a hell of a lot simpler, and doesn't require an extra house rule to justify a house rule, which tends to be a very slippery slope, especially when there's a much simpler option available.

A quarterstaff is easier to use as a double-weapon, partly due to greater surface area to be grabbed without risk of causing injury, and generally being lighter than a pair of metal blades. I've done some weapon sparring in years past, and a double-bladed sword would be a nightmare for most people unless it had a greatly exaggerated hilt, which would only add to how heavy and unwieldy the thing would be. A Scottish claymore is difficult enough to use due to it's size and mass which would be about on par with a double-bladed sword; it's a perfect example of a melee weapon with the Cumbersome quality.

Double-bladed lightsabers would get a bit of a pass in regards to Encumbrance, since the business ends of the weapon are weightless, though it's even more dangerous given the business ends can cut through metal. If you watch the Darth Maul fight in TPM closely, you can catch a few instances where Ray Park's hands slipped off the hilt and appear to be touching the energy blades of his double-bladed lightsaber. Not surprising since he was generally using staff techniques and those include moves that require a broader grip on the staff than a double-bladed lightsaber would typically allow.

See, I'd be inclined to do this, but you literally said that "Such weapons are unwieldy" in your description of why it should have Cumbersome instead ;P.

I do see that the weapon would be heavy, but I factored that in by just giving it a high Encumberence instead. That negates the whole "Agility is important with this weapon" factor, and there's no reason that I can think of for someone with 1 Agility to be able to use this weapon without severe injury happening sometime. So, I'm much more inclined to keep this new quality, since it isn't complicated or hard to deal with.

I could see the Accurate thing maybe, but I'm hesitant to give it any more buffs, since the fact that you only have to spend credits on attachments once to get them on both sides is plenty of boost for it, I think. You could easily get the Accurate quality on it, though, since the Balanced Hilt attachment does just that. I could see a special, expertly built version coming with it built in automatically, but with reduced Hard Points.

Okay, so, after much (quite fun, honestly) debate, here's the final product!

Double-Bladed Vibrosword

Skill: Melee (Requires two hands)

Damage: +2

Crit: 2

Range: Engaged

Encum: 7

HP: 3

Price: 1750 Credits

Rarity: 6

Special: Pierce 2, Vicious 1, Defensive 1, Double, Unwieldy 3

Double: This weapon always uses the rules for Dual Wielding when fighting with it.

Unwieldy: Must have an Agility equal to rating, or increase the difficulty equal to the difference to all checks made with the weapon.

This is certainly more in line with the weapons in the book, Now I'm actually wondering if it isn't a little under powered. As far as I can see the primary benefit is the ability to mod it only once. This is, in my mind, somewhat countered by the fact it is large and obvious. What about upping defensive to 2?

Even Vibroswords are pretty large and obvious. You can't easily conceal either one, and neither of them is going to be legal on a lot of worlds.

I'd be concerned with giving it Defensive 2, since that's pretty strong, and I wouldn't say that using it would be distinctively more defensive than a normal vibroblade. But you can save some pretty major money not having to buy each upgrade twice...

But then again, I'm reading Darth Bane: Path of Destruction right now and they're talking about how hard it is to fight against sword staves and saber staves simply because no one knows how to. Perhaps that could be reason enough to give it defensive 2?

On the other hand, I have another idea. What if I upped it to 4 Hard Points, since the weapon itself is larger and it has potentially more room to customize it?

If we did want to buff it, I see those as our primary two options. Either give it Defensive 2, or giving it HP 4.

And Dono, I know, I'm just messing with you . I honestly just like Unwieldy because of the Challenge dice chance. And, because it forces you to think about Agility too, not just Brawn, and I think that's a fitting thing given the weapon.

One die roll does not one pull of the trigger make.

All the "an attack with both ends is two separate actions" and "linked results from a single action" are poppycock.

Necro.