Hammered out the cover this weekend, also here is a sample of what the pages look like at this point...

This is brilliant!

I wanted to run an Old West scenario for my players with the Edge of Empire mechanics when we finish our first Star Wars mini-campaign, so I'll use your conversion, if you don't mind.

I will give you feedback once I run the scenario (I still don't know when), but your topic came just at the right time for me!

I am loving this!

I'm a long time player of Deadlands and this is bringing back some very fond memories

Just cause I'm wondering, is this in any way related to the Fistfull of Dice youtube channel?

I like what you've got going here, by the way.

Just cause I'm wondering, is this in any way related to the Fistfull of Dice youtube channel?

I like what you've got going here, by the way.

Nah, my old Sidewinder d20 Campaign from 5-6 years ago was called that. There is actually a lot of crap that uses that. :-)

As promised, I hammered out weapons.

One thing you will notice is the guns are more deadly: YEP. Also the melee weapons are more wimpy: YEP.

Another interesting choice is, I put a few artillery peices on here... but since there is not really need for "Spaceship Scale", the damages and ranges are in Character Scale... and they are HORRIDLY deadly. Basicaly you and anyone ingauged with you is pretty much dead. Pro tip... if someone is firing a Howitzer at you... RUN!

Ranged Skill Dam Crit Range Encum HP Price Rounds Special
Derringer Pistol 5 4 Short 1 1 $10 2 Inaccurate 1
Pocket Pistol Pistol 7 3 Medium 2 2 $15 6
Revolver Pistol 8 3 Medium 2 3 $20 6
Repeating Rifle Rifle 10 3 Long 3 4 $25 10
Longarm Rifle 12 2 Long 3 5 $35 1 Accurate 1
Shotgun Rifle 10/8/6 3 Special 3 4 $30 2
Bow Agility 4+ 3 Medium 3 1 $5 -- Pierce 2, Vicious 1
Spear Agility 2+ 4 Short 3 1 $5 -- Pierce 2
Note: Shotgun damage is determined by range: 10 when Engaged, 8 at Close and 6 at Medium. Shoguns also upgrade or downgrade Ability dice in the character's pool depending on range. Close Range, upgrade 1 die, Engaged upgrade 2 dice, Medium range, downgrade 1 die.

Melee Skill Dam Crit Range Encum HP Price Rounds Special
Knife Melee 1+ 3 Engaged 1 1 $5 -- Pierce 1, Vicious 1
Tomahawk Melee 2+ 3 Engaged 2 2 $5 -- Vicious 2, Disorient 1
Sword Melee 2+ 2 Engaged 3 3 $15 -- Pierce 2, Defensive 1
Bullwhip Melee 1+ -- Engaged 2 -- $5 -- Ensnare 2
Club Melee 2+ -- Engaged 2 -- -- -- Defensive 1, Disorient 3

Explosives Skill Dam Crit Range Encum HP Price Rounds Special
Black Power -- 5 4 Short 2 -- $3 -- Blast 4
Dynamite -- 8 4 Short 2 -- $8 -- Blast 6
Nitroglycerine -- 20 2 Short 1 -- $15 -- Blast 10, Breach 1, Vicious 2

Artillery Skill Dam Crit Range Encum HP Price Rounds Special
Field Gun Artillery 15 3 Extreme 15 -- -- 1 Blast 8
Howitzer Artillery 15 3 Long 10 -- -- 1 Blast 10
Patriot Rifle Artillery 20 2 Extreme 20 -- -- 1 Blast 15, Accurate 1
Gatling Gun Artillery 15 2 Long 8 -- -- 400 box Autofire, Prepare 2
Note: All Artillery except the Gatling Gun also have the following qualities: Concussive 2, Knockdown, Prepare 3 Slow Firing 2 and Vicious 2. All damages for Artillery are give at Character Scale since “Starship Scale” will not usually come into play in the setting.

Reloading: reloading a weapon is a single maneuver. If not using the ammunition rules, the Derringer, Longarm and Shotgun should have the Slow Firing 1 quality added to them

Honestly, I think you've made firearms quite a bit too deadly. A hit with a basic rifle (longarm) is going to do no less than 13 damage. Remember that a 'hit' in EotE doesn't *necessarily* equate to a bullet actually impacting vital tissues of the target. (That's more the niche of Critical Injuries.)

Also, you've got two competing mechanics on the Shotgun that more or less cancel each other out. First, you've got the damage which reduces by range. Second, you've got the Difficulty and Challenge dice pool which gets easier by range. The easier the pool, the more likely the roll will result in more successes at a given range, which will cancel out the decreased damage.

Oh, and your note about the Prepare quality if not using your ammo rules, doesn't make much sense to me unless you've changed what Prepare means in this rule set. Prepare is the amount of time it takes to set up the weapon for use. Once it is set up, Prepare has no further impact on it's use from round to round. This makes sense for things like gattling guns, which take some time to get into position, set up the tripod, mount the gun on the tripod, feed in a box of ammo, and prepare to fire. It doesn't make sense for a shotgun or derringer, which would be carried ready to use, but would run out of ammunition much more quickly than a magazine-fed firearm. (Of course, you're also discussing the difference between 2 shots (shotgun & derringer) vs. 5-6 shots (revolvers) or 8-10 shots (magazine-fed longarms).

Also, you've got two competing mechanics on the Shotgun that more or less cancel each other out. First, you've got the damage which reduces by range. Second, you've got the Difficulty and Challenge dice pool which gets easier by range. The easier the pool, the more likely the roll will result in more successes at a given range, which will cancel out the decreased damage.

Actually you've got the shotguns backwards... perhaps I need to describe it better. It adds YELLOW dice to the shooter, not RED to the difficulty and yes, if they already have all Yellow, it adds a green, or just another Red at Engaged (2 upgrades). I may actually remove variable damage at distances and just leave this as the sole mechanic.

As for the damage, the main rifle and gun are only 1 higher than they are in Edge of the Empire. A "Basic Rifle" as you call it woud be the Repeater (not the longarm). The Longarm is a single shot Sharps rifle with a .52 calibre round meant for taking down buffalo.

As for prepair, I may need to read it more closely... it has never come up before in my game. Perhaps I misread how it works.

Please comment more, curious on other thoughts.

Reread prepare, your are right. I was confusing it with Slow-Firing. However, I now have ALL artillery as Prepare 3, and just the 3 cannons at Slow-Firing 2.

Also for the non ammo rules, the guns are Slow-Firing 1.

EDIT: Actually I quickly changed my mind. Gatling is Prepare 2, not 3... rest is same.

I think I am going to make loading 2 maneuvers also. These could be over 2 different turns...

Round 1: FIRE, reload 1

Round 2: Reload 2, FIRE

Slow-reload is something I added to certain weapon in my Free-traders catalogue; basically it adds 1 manoeuvre per rating when reloading a weapon, so a slow-reload 1 weapon requires 2 manoeuvres to relaod. I think its a nifty quality for some weapons, although combining it with slow-firing and limited ammo could make weapons really unattractive.

Also, you've got two competing mechanics on the Shotgun that more or less cancel each other out. First, you've got the damage which reduces by range. Second, you've got the Difficulty and Challenge dice pool which gets easier by range. The easier the pool, the more likely the roll will result in more successes at a given range, which will cancel out the decreased damage.

Actually you've got the shotguns backwards... perhaps I need to describe it better. It adds YELLOW dice to the shooter, not RED to the difficulty and yes, if they already have all Yellow, it adds a green, or just another Red at Engaged (2 upgrades). I may actually remove variable damage at distances and just leave this as the sole mechanic.

As for the damage, the main rifle and gun are only 1 higher than they are in Edge of the Empire. A "Basic Rifle" as you call it woud be the Repeater (not the longarm). The Longarm is a single shot Sharps rifle with a .52 calibre round meant for taking down buffalo.

As for prepair, I may need to read it more closely... it has never come up before in my game. Perhaps I misread how it works.

Please comment more, curious on other thoughts.

On the shotgun mechanic, I think it was me not being quite clear. Adding range reduces base damage, and gives you a better dice pool, right? The better dice pool will result in more uncanceled successes (more damage), which will be cancelled out by the reduced damage. Shotguns with a reasonable combat load (slugs or large shot) doesn't spread all that much at effective ranges, so there isn't much call for a bonus to hit, or a reduction to damage.

If you want to give a neat twist to shotguns, give them multiple types of ammo. Standard, non-lethal (rock salt), dragon's breath (phosphorous), etc.

Ah, ok. Maybe a better name for the 'Longarm' would be 'Buffalo Gun'? Longarm is, after all, the generic term for rifles, muskets, shotguns, carbines, etc.

Yeah, now you got the shotgun mechanic right. I did re-write it above so it was clearer... adding the words "Upgrade ability dice".

The main reason I want to upgrade the dice is I want more chances of Cits at close range. This will allow people without rifle skill to get crits too. It emulates how I originally was going which was shotguns use no skills, just Agility. A friend Convinced me it still needed Rifle. I may just switch shotgun to like... 8 and use the dice upgrading alone. I may have to stage a combat test to see how it works more clearly.

The two ammos was thought about, but mechanically you are just better using a rifle at that point. Plus in the movies they always use buckshot and blow people off their feet. Not realistic all all, but cinematic cool.

As for the name longarm, I don't really care for it either... but I do not like Buffalo Gun any better. Originally I had Hunting Rifle, but hate that one too. Perhaps if anyone else has some suggestions...

As for the damages overall... I purposely wanted them slightly larger... while lowering melee. Trying to get a real feel of "bringing a gun to a knife fight" feel instead of trying to balance them. When I actually run a playtest, I may mitigate this by upping Wounds slightly on humans. I want it to be if someone shoots you twice, you very likely might die, however being stabbed 3 or 4 times might not.

Edit: Actually on the rifle names... I may just call the Winchester a "Repeater", then call the Sharps a "Rifle"... Then change the SKILL Longarms. Along this same line I could then call Pistols "Handguns" of "Smallarms"

I'd also consider a fourth Profession, with four Specializations.

Profession: Lawkeeper. (I was going to say "Lawman", but that sounded sexist.)

But the Old West WAS sexist. Keep calling it Lawman. I can't think of many Lawwomen of the Old West off the top of my head.

Make Computers simply into Science. You could include Electricity, Chemistry, Biology, etc under Science.

Then I would keep Engineer in the mix as suggested above for actually building large things.

A character can call himself a "Lawman" even if the career is called 'Lawkeeper'. There weren't *many" 'Lawwomen' in the Old West, but there were a few (usually 'unofficial' members of the profession). There's just no need to bake the assumption of gender into a career or specialization for the game.

I'm still not sure I'm understanding the shotgun mechanic, then. If the dice pool improves with increased range, then you'll get more crits at longer ranges. A simpler method, if you want the shotgun to give more crits, would be for it to provide a bonus Advantage or two at Short range.

I'd definitely keep Shotguns under your Ranged (heavy) skill equivalent, which encompasses all two-handed ranged weapons. There's a myth out there that you don't need to aim a shotgun, but it simply isn't true. You use the same skill set to shoot a shotgun as a rifle.

Back to the overall damage tweak (more ranged, less melee), that's actually not realistic. You're actually slightly *more* likely to die of a stab wound, statistically speaking. (It's roughly 1:10 die when shot, 1:8 die when stabbed. Mind you, that's with modern medical technology, but if the treatment of both wounds is kept at the same level, the lethality will, at worst, increase at the same rate. It may now be 10:80 vs. 12:80.) Frankly, most people (Joe Average, not Joe Hero) are going to be out of the fight in one shot/stab/punch, simply because most people don't have that level of 'fight' in them. Heroes, are a bit 'special' in that regard.

The reason you "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" isn't that the knife is less deadly. It's because, if you start more than 7 yards away, you're probably going to get shot before you can close the distance. More if he's unaware, less if he's already got his ready. If you want to encourage firearm usage over melee and brawl, then simply make sure that more careers & specs provide firearm related skills, and reserve melee and brawl for those where that would make sense as a specialization.

As for weapon names, there's still some room for tweaking for clarity. Repeaters aren't necessarily rifles, there are repeating pistols, and repeating rifles. There are even repeating shotguns. Just as there were revolvers, and revolver-style rifles. (I'm not familiar with a shotgun setup in that manner, but that certainly doesn't mean it didn't exist.) Instead of trying to build specific weapons, I'd keep to ranges of weapons. Don't worry about whether a given handgun is a 'revolver' or a 'pistol', just deal with hold-out (derringer), light, standard, and heavy.

Typically ammo capacity will generally decrease with the damage of the round (larger caliber rounds take up more space), though the derringer will be an exception there with 2-3 shots at most. Light handguns might load with 8-11 rounds, so call it 10 for easy record keeping. Standard and Heavy would be 5-6 (the classic six-shooter), with the added size of the frame and cylinder/magazine making room for the standard load-out in the heavy.

As for the buffalo rifle, there's always the other fallback of 'Heavy Rifle', or a 'Kentucky Long Rifle' (typically ~.56 caliber), I believe they stayed in use for a good long while, especially out on the frontiers.

Shotgun damage is determined by range: 10 when Engaged, 8 at Close and 6 at Medium. Shoguns also upgrade or downgrade Ability dice in the character's pool depending on range. Close Range, upgrade 1 die, Engaged upgrade 2 dice, Medium range, downgrade 1 die.

It does not upgrade at longer distance. See above.

BF,

Is there any method (be it Talent, Weapon Attachement/Modification or ammo) that allows someone to extend shotguns beyond Medium range? If so how does that affect the range upgrade/dowgrade issue as part of their unique rules?

Voice, on 27 Aug 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Typically ammo capacity will generally decrease with the damage of the round (larger caliber rounds take up more space), though the derringer will be an exception there with 2-3 shots at most. Light handguns might load with 8-11 rounds, so call it 10 for easy record keeping. Standard and Heavy would be 5-6 (the classic six-shooter), with the added size of the frame and cylinder/magazine making room for the standard load-out in the heavy.

Most of the info I am getting from THIS BOOK (as well as a couple other sources), which is what I used in my d20 Sidewinder campaign, where I added and customized about 30-35 different weapons. Not wanting to deal with this nonsense again, I am just following FFGs lead and simplifying all them.

Here are the ones I use as examples I use in the finished document.

Derringer:

Remington Model 95 -- This is almost always what they show in the movies as a "derringer"

Pocket Pistol: (actually you have convinced me to lower this to 5 rounds). These followed the earlier Percussion Cap Colt Pocket Models (like the Baby Dragoon)... which brings up another concept I kind of tossed out... Percussion Cap weapons

S&W Model 1 1/2 -- .32 cal, 5 rounds. (Model 1 is .22 cal with 8 rounds)

Colt New Line -- Various caliber. Only one that has more than 5 rounds, the .22

Revolver: all are 6 round cylinders

Colt Single Action Army : .45 cal

Remington Model 1875: .45, .44 cal

S&W Model 3 Scholfield: .45 (non-schofieldl model 3 came in a few others like .44, .38)

BF,

Is there any method (be it Talent, Weapon Attachement/Modification or ammo) that allows someone to extend shotguns beyond Medium range? If so how does that affect the range upgrade/dowgrade issue as part of their unique rules?

Probably not. Long range is a crazy distance for a shotgun loaded with Buckshot.

As for Attachments, etc. That is what I am hoping to work on this weekend.

This means I am almost done with the basic bits. I will need to go over the book quickly to see if there is anything I want to add, but here is a rundown on stuff I am planning...

Armor: none. I am allowing all players (unless for some reason in underwear or nude) to be considered to have Soak 2.

Horses: I will be writing a fairly extensive piece on horses as a separate document. This idea comes from my old d20 Sidewinder campaign where I wrote a 10-15 page set up rules for horses, where horses Leveled every other level of character and gained a feat every other level (every 4th character level). These will be similar but probably greatly simplified... probably barrowing ideas from Vehicle customizations and some Talents.

EDIT: I just remember this... in the original book, there were also horse tricks. These worked like the d20 Modern "talents" (not like SWRPG talents)... they built on each other with requirements. I will probably take this into some consideration.

Coaches & Wagons: I will probably put these in the Horse supplement also

Percussion Cap Weapons: I make throw in a couple small rules for these because they were still very common even after cartridge guns were available. Also, a lot of "conversions" were made available for them. I will probably have a simple rule of same gun, half the cost, takes longer to load.

Shotgun damage is determined by range: 10 when Engaged, 8 at Close and 6 at Medium. Shoguns also upgrade or downgrade Ability dice in the character's pool depending on range. Close Range, upgrade 1 die, Engaged upgrade 2 dice, Medium range, downgrade 1 die.

It does not upgrade at longer distance. See above.

Ah ha! Ok, That bold part is what I was (obviously) misreading (rather consistently). Now that I understand it properly, I still stand by the idea of just giving the shotgun bonus advantage at close range and shorter, if your goal is to trigger crits more often. It provides that result, and involves less manipulation of the dice pool.

Still not sure I like the idea of the damage varying by range, but that's more of a KISS principle than anything else.

For the shotgun, why not just have it auto generate threat based on the range increment (more range, more threat) and give it a crit rating of 2?

This solves both problems of damage scaling and makes it have some unexpected results a longer ranges which could be fun.

Voice, on 27 Aug 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Typically ammo capacity will generally decrease with the damage of the round (larger caliber rounds take up more space), though the derringer will be an exception there with 2-3 shots at most. Light handguns might load with 8-11 rounds, so call it 10 for easy record keeping. Standard and Heavy would be 5-6 (the classic six-shooter), with the added size of the frame and cylinder/magazine making room for the standard load-out in the heavy.

There are no real normal handguns from the old west that had more than 6 rounds other than tiny .22 cal. There are a few exotic exceptions like the " Volcanic Pistol ", but they are not the norm. In fact, most "Hold Outs" Had 5 shots, or were actually just shorter barreled versions of other Revolvers (4" vs 6")

Most of the info I am getting from THIS BOOK (as well as a couple other sources), which is what I used in my d20 Sidewinder campaign, where I added and customized about 30-35 different weapons. Not wanting to deal with this nonsense again, I am just following FFGs lead and simplifying all them.

Here are the ones I use as examples I use in the finished document.

Derringer:

Remington Model 95 -- This is almost always what they show in the movies as a "derringer"

Pocket Pistol: (actually you have convinced me to lower this to 5 rounds). These followed the earlier Percussion Cap Colt Pocket Models (like the Baby Dragoon)... which brings up another concept I kind of tossed out... Percussion Cap weapons

S&W Model 1 1/2 -- .32 cal, 5 rounds. (Model 1 is .22 cal with 8 rounds)

Colt New Line -- Various caliber. Only one that has more than 5 rounds, the .22

Revolver: all are 6 round cylinders

Colt Single Action Army : .45 cal

Remington Model 1875: .45, .44 cal

S&W Model 3 Scholfield: .45 (non-schofieldl model 3 came in a few others like .44, .38)

The ~.22 is actually what I was picturing for a derringer or 'high-capacity' light handgun. Once you get into the .32-.38 range, there's not *that* much performance difference, and they'd be the 'standard' model, with the stuff .45 Colt being 'heavy'. (Then again, compared to modern loads of the same actual caliber {bullet diameter}, the old west ammunition was positively anemic.)

The Volcanic is actually a favorite of mine, mostly from a 'looks' perspective. It never really panned out as a handgun, but it served quite nicely as the engineering test bed for the Winchester lever-action repeating rifle. IIRC, it had an 8-12 rounds magazine (depending on barrel length and bullet caliber).

For the shotgun, why not just have it auto generate threat based on the range increment (more range, more threat) and give it a crit rating of 2?

This solves both problems of damage scaling and makes it have some unexpected results a longer ranges which could be fun.

There's another way to do it. I was thinking bonus Advantage as it got closer, but this works as well.

Ah ha! Ok, That bold part is what I was (obviously) misreading (rather consistently). Now that I understand it properly, I still stand by the idea of just giving the shotgun bonus advantage at close range and shorter, if your goal is to trigger crits more often. It provides that result, and involves less manipulation of the dice pool.

Still not sure I like the idea of the damage varying by range, but that's more of a KISS principle than anything else.

To be fair, I changed it so the first time, you had a right to be confused, I wrote it pretty badly

As for the crits, I want it to be able to crit for people who have no skill in Rifles. That is why I am adding the upgrades.

For the shotgun, why not just have it auto generate threat based on the range increment (more range, more threat) and give it a crit rating of 2?

This solves both problems of damage scaling and makes it have some unexpected results a longer ranges which could be fun.

This is not a bad idea... I will think about this.

The Volcanic is actually a favorite of mine, mostly from a 'looks' perspective. It never really panned out as a handgun, but it served quite nicely as the engineering test bed for the Winchester lever-action repeating rifle. IIRC, it had an 8-12 rounds magazine (depending on barrel length and bullet caliber).

Agreed, cool gun... just not worth making special rules for. There are several cool guns I had in my old d20 one... like the LaMet Revolver. I would say if you have a character who wants a specific gun, just house rules it.

Actually, I need to make a few special rules also... things like "fanning" your revolver. I need to review all of the talents in Sidewinder actually.

Ah ha! Ok, That bold part is what I was (obviously) misreading (rather consistently). Now that I understand it properly, I still stand by the idea of just giving the shotgun bonus advantage at close range and shorter, if your goal is to trigger crits more often. It provides that result, and involves less manipulation of the dice pool.

Still not sure I like the idea of the damage varying by range, but that's more of a KISS principle than anything else.

To be fair, I changed it so the first time, you had a right to be confused, I wrote it pretty badly

As for the crits, I want it to be able to crit for people who have no skill in Rifles. That is why I am adding the upgrades.

For the shotgun, why not just have it auto generate threat based on the range increment (more range, more threat) and give it a crit rating of 2?

This solves both problems of damage scaling and makes it have some unexpected results a longer ranges which could be fun.

This is not a bad idea... I will think about this.

You don't have to roll a Triumph to get a Crit. You just need to roll enough Advantage to trigger it. Either having close ranges grant Advantage, or reducing the Crit requirement and having long ranges generate Threat would help trigger them more often at short distances. I'm not sure which one would feel 'cleaner' from a write-up stand point, but I suspect it's the Threat version suggested by JasonRR. (Mostly becaus his version made sense to you first, and that's a fairly objective measure of clarity.)

The Volcanic is actually a favorite of mine, mostly from a 'looks' perspective. It never really panned out as a handgun, but it served quite nicely as the engineering test bed for the Winchester lever-action repeating rifle. IIRC, it had an 8-12 rounds magazine (depending on barrel length and bullet caliber).

Agreed, cool gun... just not worth making special rules for. There are several cool guns I had in my old d20 one... like the LaMet Revolver. I would say if you have a character who wants a specific gun, just house rules it.

I agree completely that the Volcanic doesn't need a special write-up. Though, it does open up the potential for an 'extended capacity' attachment, which would give a higher 'Limited Ammo' rank. That would, flavor-wise, cover a variety of 'unusual' guns like the Volcanic, or a Mare's Leg (or even one of the weird, over/under revolvers).

Just a small update...

It is not dead, just been busy. I do not have a gaming session this weekend so I think I will finish the book up. All I really need to do is tie all the pages together, finish layout and work up some "connective filler text".