At second (or third) carrier, You have 3 to 5 new cards maximum, action and talent...

i pretty sure system Is NOT broken at This step...

LOL Ragnar. You Dark Heresy fans are going to have to reconcile with the Star Wars people before they can do anything

jh

LOL Ragnar. You Dark Heresy fans are going to have to reconcile with the Star Wars people before they can do anything

jh

Star Wars is still in the honeymoon phase. Their Game-Is-Broken Coalition hasn't been formed yet. Jedi are restless though so it shouldn't be long. Only once they have assembled their disgruntled masses can we continue to speculate about 4 different unrealized versions of Warhammer. I'm particularly interested in the cardless edition that I can play in a noisy pub. I plan on getting on top of a table and bellowing like a Troll Slayer while pelting everyone with Force dice and belligerently referencing page numbers for rules.

Let us all be honest, this game is not perfect but with some small rules changes it would be great. I understand Ragnar becouse an A4 sheet takes not that much space on the table and it easier to take it anywhere. The other like the card system and prefer to have it all in front of them at the table. The one thing that could FFG do is to do a good version of the game that would change the must use cards and tokens into you can use card and tokens. The Lite version was a try in this direction but it did not worked. FFG should just try harder and make for an example an expansion with special rules that would allow to play with only a A4 character sheet or something like a character folio. This expansion would not change the way the game is published but would alow, those that want, to change the game into more classical aproach to RPGs. Everybody would be happy. Personaly I would gladly see something like it and give it a try.

PS. I don't think the game should copy DH 2e or SW rpg, every ot those games is different and should have a different approach

And maybe Cards are not perfect for rpg (or not, for my own, it's perfect)

but noisy pub not too

even like playing traditionals wargames on a boat, ...

First of all everyone plays where he wants and where it suits him. If someone would like to play n a pub let him do that. Personaly I had some great sessions outside, camping and in the woods with WFRP 1e. But I would never play WFRP 3e this way becuse there is to much stuff that I would have to take with me. So at this poiont cards, tokens and all the rest is a lot of trouble. Even when I would play in one of my players house taking all the stuff to him is a problem. You can easiely loose some components that You will never replace, so at this poiont a more classical aproach to RPGs is much better.

And second, at this point it not a problem of the system but the mechanics that not allows players to play without cards. FFG just should do a good alternative mechanic that will allow players to not use cards and tokens replacing them with a book with chart, tables, a character sheet where You can write all necessarily information and for example a action point system that would replace tokens. That's all! This would not require from FFG any edition changes and the game could be published the way it is so far. And they could come back to publishh in books all the actions for monster and not just give us cards for them. So in a expansion you would have action cards for monsters and the same actions reprinted in the book. This really would not be problematic for FFG!

And second, at this point it not a problem of the system but the mechanics that not allows players to play without cards. FFG just should do a good alternative mechanic that will allow players to not use cards and tokens replacing them with a book with chart, tables, a character sheet where You can write all necessarily information and for example a action point system that would replace tokens. That's all! This would not require from FFG any edition changes and the game could be published the way it is so far. And they could come back to publishh in books all the actions for monster and not just give us cards for them. So in a expansion you would have action cards for monsters and the same actions reprinted in the book. This really would not be problematic for FFG!

Isn't cardless gaming what the Vaults were supposed to accomplish? Yet it doesn't seem like many people are playing this way. Perhaps when physical cards & chits are removed from the equation, people don't really enjoy looking up Boon, Bane, Success and Chaos star outcomes on charts for every roll? Seems to me that the full-on "3e experience" is having all the components in play. It'll be interesting to see how long SW: EotE remains popular with the constant symbol-referencing on charts.

Isn't cardless gaming what the Vaults were supposed to accomplish? Yet it doesn't seem like many people are playing this way. Perhaps when physical cards & chits are removed from the equation, people don't really enjoy looking up Boon, Bane, Success and Chaos star outcomes on charts for every roll? Seems to me that the full-on "3e experience" is having all the components in play.

No, they did not accomplish it and there were not to. In The Players Guide there is a Lite version of the game but it's a big missunderstanding becouse it forces players and GM to rewrite everything from each card to an A4 sheet which is meaningless. The Lite version look like it was never playtested just made to be made and nothing more. So nobody uses it. If the Lite version would be playable then many players that like a more classical approach to RPGs would use it.

From my perspective the Guides & Vaults where made to make money and nothing more. But they had a advantage they brought all information into hardback books, so all yoo don't have to look in others but have all in one pleace but they had many, many mistakes in them so the errata for those is few A4 pages with small text long.

If I looks at 3e then I see:

-a very good custom dice mechanics

-a great way of pubishing careers on sheets so all career can be in one pleace and not each in other book

-too many cards and tokens needed to play

- lack of support from the publisher

For me the 3e misses, to be the greatest WFRP:

-a cardless option of play that would allow players to choose the way they want to play the game, the one that would be playable

- books with more information about the lands, traditions and so on, so more fluff like they say

- a bigginres box so new players would have a easy start and don't have to buy an expensive core set

- much more support from FFG

- a comeback to the way of publishing actions not only on cards but also in books

Like I said in many of my post earlier this isn't a bad game but it could be better if FFG would lissen to people that want to play WFRP. The sad thing is that many people are loosing interest in this game becouse FFG does not support it well, so people are seling the WFRP 3e. The only way to change it is for FFG to make this game evolve with more support and some announces that would proof to many players that this game is not dead.

Cheers

PS. Does anyone know if there will be any Warhammer from FFG at GenCon? Any seminars or something? Will there be a chance for anyone to ask FFG directly about the future of WFRP? Let's hope we will not have to and we will see any announces or nice suprises.

Of course we Can plat everywhere, and by my own experience too, table isn't always best place to play...

but can't judge a Game by capabilities to ne use or not in some exotic places...

I guess the last thing I'll offer here, mostly because this conversation is simply pointless opinion pawing at this point, is that I come to FFG for innovative, niche systems with tons of components. My family has entire bookshelves full of their board games, card games, and rpg's. If we wanted traditional systems we'd go buy exactly that...there are countless options on the market for the mundane. Could Warhammer use a little polish? Certainly. A beginners box is a fantastic idea and a new campaign set or fluff book wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings either. Works of art are seldom completed but often abandoned. One thing I won't do, though is go to the butcher shop and demand broccoli. I think if I wanted or needed some of the options a few of you are seeking I'd simply run the perfectly functional 2E and call it a day...or maybe reference the 100 pages full of charts, cards, and data at the end of the Players Guide and build out from there. How about Warhammer games with Pathfinder rulesets or Fate Core builds? A Waaagh! using Savage Worlds is a riot! It's all out there and easily assembled! All the time spent house-ruling a system can easily be spent hacking a setting into your prefered system. After tasting WFRP 3E I've had several players create custom action cards and components for everything from Shadowrun to Deathwatch to the new Edge of the Empire so I can't subscribe to the idea that everyone wants to play 1980's style with their nose in a book. I think if that's your style then wonderful. Awesome. I'm not sure why you're here , though. There's nothing here to be "right" about, not to a degree that the target demographic is invested in, at any rate. It's a mesmerizing conundrum. Good gaming to all. /salute

If I looks at 3e then I see:

-a very good custom dice mechanics

-a great way of pubishing careers on sheets so all career can be in one pleace and not each in other book

-too many cards and tokens needed to play

- lack of support from the publisher

For me the 3e misses, to be the greatest WFRP:

-a cardless option of play that would allow players to choose the way they want to play the game, the one that would be playable

- books with more information about the lands, traditions and so on, so more fluff like they say

- a bigginres box so new players would have a easy start and don't have to buy an expensive core set

- much more support from FFG

- a comeback to the way of publishing actions not only on cards but also in books

How do you propose FFG should go about keeping the custom dice for 3.5e/4e but removing the cards? Should there be dozens of pages of look-up charts instead, like SW: EotE has? Having not played Sw:EotE myself, I'm not sure how intuitive the symbol results are for every skill, Talent etc. Perhaps players can easily memorize the symbol results for their PC's abilites after a couple of sessions. What about GMs, do they find themselves returning to the rulebook time after time for symbol-referencing? If that's the case, then having dozens of pages of reference charts actually worsens the constant look-up issue that v3 was trying to avoid.

WFRP v2 Skills and Talents had effects that could be summarized on a single line of the character sheet, once during character creation and occasionally during XP spending. The entire Skill/Talent list (with effect summaries) for v2 fits on a single, double-sided reference sheet. There's no way you could condense the reference charts for a "symbol-die" system like v3 or SW:EotE that much, without seriously trimming down the crunch and making the symbol dice more open to player/GM interpretation.

If you're ditching all the components except the symbol dice, then I think you have to re-examine the dice system too. What does it really bring to the game? Can the symbol-dice concept be adapted to a system without dozens of pages of look-up charts? If the answer is no, then I'm afraid games that use these dice will always be limited to people who enjoy looking up results on cards or charts. WFRP3e, in particular, will always be limited to the sub-group of people who enjoy sorting components and/or moving things around with their hands while talking to each other.

Easiely, the dice are staying but actions have only possitive effects that you write down on character sheets (3 or 4 lines maximum). The actions just have a one side effect and You really don't have to keep checking back in the book every 5 sec. This really can be done.

The porpose of this I'm here is that I love the setting but not this edition. But after reading something what people are writing here I get the feeling this forum is now not WFRP lover forum but a pleace only for WFRP 3e lovers that hate all others editions and others that would like to see this game evolve (with or without cards). Do it like this guys more and You will see this game will die sooner then You think. And when it does then I will have my satisfaction becouse I always thought that fans of WFRP should support them self regardles of the edition they are playing but You showed my how wrong I am. Thanks!

Thank You, you prooved me it was a good thing that I sold all my WFRP 3e collection. It would be harder after they will announce a new or improved edition. I'm getting out of this sinking ship.

PS. FFG loves to do betas now . You know so after DH2e beta now we will get Star Wars Age of Rebelion Beta. I hope the next thing in line is a new WFRP 3.5e or 4e beta. Goodbuy!

Easiely, the dice are staying but actions have only possitive effects that you write down on character sheets (3 or 4 lines maximum). The actions just have a one side effect and You really don't have to keep checking back in the book every 5 sec. This really can be done.

Would there be a standard list of, say, 8 combat actions that everyone uses, or would PCs still buy additional actions from hundreds of options, each of which requires writing down 3-4 lines of symbol text on your character sheet? How about skills - would each skill have a few paragraphs of text, interspersed with symbol references that also need to be copied onto the character sheet as per SW:EotE? Then add in Talents on top of that. Altogether, players would likely be copying around 60 lines of symbol reference text onto their character sheets for starting PCs, nevermind advanced ones. I just don't think the average roleplayer is interested in that amount of paperwork just to make use of symbol dice.

You sound like a grumpy pumpkin, Beren... but it is a board for the 3rd edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. If it's any consolation I thought 2nd edition was a fantastic time as well. We have several great general Warhammer and rpg creation/hack groups over on Reddit and Google+ that would give you a big bearhug and welcome your playstyle and ideas with open arms. You should consider coming to visit us there and not take the passion and support here for 3E so personally simply because it runs contrary to your opinions. Pro tip: most of the folks here like the edition and prefer to discuss it's best practices and longevity more than it's demise or complete reconstruction. It's kinda why the board is here.

Perhaps you're right and there will be a new WFRP Beta open soon, and then you shall have your revenge! I hope it is truly delicious and satisfying. Until then... For the Emperor! Cheers.

I love w3, bit love too w1... So many hours of pleasure...

i can't say about w2, because don't like period nor magic system...

Unfortunately the group I play with (we have all playtested and / or written for FFG) agree that not only that the core rules were not playtested beyond Rank 1 but that all the later action cards were not checked to see how they might affect the positives and negatives of earlier action cards.

This is /was one of the main problems of Warhammer 3. It was very evident for me and my group.

Now SW Age of Rebellion Beta is out, the same as SW EotE Beta was. I hope that if FFG ever puts a new edition of Warhammer out in the market, they also use this Beta system. With EotE worked great!

Cheers,

Yepes

So, ragnar63, You've a very particular capability...

without playing nor testing, You know that a Game sucks, only after 2 or 3 sessions/xp and Is cheating/unusuable with cards not printing at This moment...

impressive, Most impressive...

and "high level" cards are not mandatory to be more powerfull...

could be, some, as specialization cards or enhanced one (You know This mechanic? Very Interresting)

but new capabilities are often new option...

when i do sport, many time i learn new mouvement (in tennis, basketball, .. ) and few time it's "Just" bodybuilding...

but tour predictive capability Is very impressive

So, ragnar63, You've a very particular capability...

without playing nor testing, You know that a Game sucks, only after 2 or 3 sessions/xp and Is cheating/unusuable with cards not printing at This moment...

impressive, Most impressive...

and "high level" cards are not mandatory to be more powerfull...

could be, some, as specialization cards or enhanced one (You know This mechanic? Very Interresting)

but new capabilities are often new option...

when i do sport, many time i learn new mouvement (in tennis, basketball, .. ) and few time it's "Just" bodybuilding...

but tour predictive capability Is very impressive

Sorry, your english is unclear. However your first comment is verging on the defamatory. I can only hope that it was meant with extreme sarcasm, though that is unclear with your poor grasp of written english.

I have played all three editions from the start, and have plenty of experience of all three editions, including playtesting of the 3rd edition for FFG. Our experience of playtesting for FFG helped us to the understanding that the system was not properly playtested in the first place. In some cases we had little more than a fortnight to read and playtest stuff. I have also playtested and written stuff for other RPG's and wargames rules, and so know what I am talking about.

V3 was a massive experiment. Unfortunately it was not playtested thoroughly enough or with a wide enough group of playtesters. I wish it had been, believe me. Again from experience, and from our own groups attempts at house rules for the this game, too many house rules can upset some delicate balances within the game and bring about the law of unintended consequences

WHEN FFG bring out a new edition of the rules (due to financial considerations mainly), it will need to be thoroughly Beta tested this time.

We've never had issues. But if there is one thing a thread like this teaches us, it's that there is variety here!

Someday, there will be a new edition. I haven't seen the DH beta rules, but if WFRP became more like the FFG systems I have seen, including EotE, I wouldn't switch. I find them all less innovative, less interesting and less fun.

As long as a witch hunter doesn't show up to burn my cards and bits I'll be fine

We've never had issues. But if there is one thing a thread like this teaches us, it's that there is variety here!

Someday, there will be a new edition. I haven't seen the DH beta rules, but if WFRP became more like the FFG systems I have seen, including EotE, I wouldn't switch. I find them all less innovative, less interesting and less fun.

As long as a witch hunter doesn't show up to burn my cards and bits I'll be fine

I'm with you on this one. Even if FFG never releases another 3e product and starts work on the dull clone that our Dunning-Kruger friends here are clamoring for I've made a great investment, my table is having an absolute blast with the system as written, and we'll get years of play out of it. So, ultimately...whatever. I'm a big 40k fan as well and this could have been a pretty interesting conversation but it's mostly been an embarrassing anti-product, trash thread. It's a shame that it's the first thing people see when they come here. Classless. I at least learned how to block users so it hasn't been a total loss. We're practically neighbors, Tush. Maybe next time I'm in your area we should grab some folks and play a round Cheers.

Ragnar, sorry for my poor English, and typing on my french Smartphone (so with automatic french corrections)

i still Never understand where system isn't adapt for second or third carrier (except maybe for customiser, and that's not a compliment when we said for another rpg Player that he Is a customiser...)

but from economical part, they can't Forget This version, because in other country, translation are late, so probbaly existing only since 2 or 3 years maximum...

Keeop, That'd be great!

I've also just recently gotten Fantasy Grounds and maybe we can give that a shot sometime, as well.

I'm a big 40k fan as well and this could have been a pretty interesting conversation but it's mostly been an embarrassing anti-product, trash thread. It's a shame that it's the first thing people see when they come here.

The subject of how WFRP 3e should evolve is complex, because the experiential factor of components makes it highly subjective and personality-motivated. From what I've seen, it's definitely a common opinion among 3e "borderline fans" (of which there seem to be many) that the symbol dice are good, whereas the other components are mostly bad. Beren Eoath's vision for 3.5e is pretty standard, based on what I've read around the forums.

It just seems to me that, in order for a 4e to merge the DH2e mechanics with the symbol dice concept and remain accessible to the roleplaying majority, it would require a radical re-imagining of the symbol dice as a narrative tool, removing the emphasis on look-up charts (or cards) and shifting more to general guidelines instead i.e. only skill/action/talent descriptions, no symbol codes requiring look-up, anywhere. But again, I haven't played EotE yet so perhaps the symbol-referencing issue isn't as big a barrier for casual roleplayers as I'm imagining it would be.

I'm a big 40k fan as well and this could have been a pretty interesting conversation but it's mostly been an embarrassing anti-product, trash thread. It's a shame that it's the first thing people see when they come here.

The subject of how WFRP 3e should evolve is complex, because the experiential factor of components makes it highly subjective and personality-motivated. From what I've seen, it's definitely a common opinion among 3e "borderline fans" (of which there seem to be many) that the symbol dice are good, whereas the other components are mostly bad. Beren Eoath's vision for 3.5e is pretty standard, based on what I've read around the forums.

It just seems to me that, in order for a 4e to merge the DH2e mechanics with the symbol dice concept and remain accessible to the roleplaying majority, it would require a radical re-imagining of the symbol dice as a narrative tool, removing the emphasis on look-up charts (or cards) and shifting more to general guidelines instead i.e. only skill/action/talent descriptions, no symbol codes requiring look-up, anywhere. But again, I haven't played EotE yet so perhaps the symbol-referencing issue isn't as big a barrier for casual roleplayers as I'm imagining it would be.

I appreciate your thoughtful, relevant contribution. There's certainly no clear answer that will satisfy all the demographics. So far I find EotE to be incredibly fun, very rolled back and streamlined dice-interpretation-wise but there's just enough there that it requires a few charts. One interesting thing I've noticed with EotE is that without a reference in front of the player I'm either having to remind the table what their advantage/threat options are, or I'm watching them default to 1 or 2 results simply because they can't remember the available spectrum, or they don't want to pause the action to dig through the book. I'm sure that will improve with experience, but it didn't seem to be as prominent of an issue with my Warhammer table. It's not stopping the show in a Pathfinder/research sense, but there is a noticeable lag. Several of my EotE players are already making custom action cards for their talents and reference cards for dice interpretation so maybe that will improve. Writing a thesis on their character sheet doesn't seem to be an appealing option for them, although I did offer it as a solution

Overall I suppose streamlined is the best word I can use to describe Edge. I have an open enough mind to envision something like that in a WFRP setting, but it seems like the stance meters and slightly more complex dice setup offers a little more flexibility as well as that Gotrek and Felix mood "swing" which is kinda appealing. With Edge an advantage for a bounty hunter can be the same as an advantage with a politican, with little individual style or flair aside from weapon crit requirement. This makes things simple and quick but again it seems to be lacking a certain layer of personality. Those WFRP cards contain a lot of variety that I think some might take for granted or won't miss until all of their career options are stripped down to 5-6 standard reactions. Edge talents provide an MMO-style skill tree that contain some fun things in it aesthetically, and specialization combos do offer some illusion of variety, but ultimately the flavor kind of carries itself across all the careers. You're adding a die here, a die there. Maybe a +1 to something. Again this is just opinion based on my current experience, and I do love EotE. Ultimately my Star Wars table contains my more beer-n-pretzel, combat-oriented, casual players while the Warhammer group tend to love a deeper story with a little more roleplay, tons of components and a few more options to tinker with. Again, I consider myself lucky and privileged to GM to the best of both worlds.

It is interesting how each table is almost a unique ecosystem in and of itself. I used to think we were all pretty similar in taste and style

One interesting thing I've noticed with EotE is that without a reference in front of the player I'm either having to remind the table what their advantage/threat options are, or I'm watching them default to 1 or 2 results simply because they can't remember the available spectrum, or they don't want to pause the action to dig through the book. I'm sure that will improve with experience, but it didn't seem to be as prominent of an issue with my Warhammer table. It's not stopping the show in a Pathfinder/research sense, but there is a noticeable lag. Several of my EotE players are already making custom action cards for their talents and reference cards for dice interpretation so maybe that will improve.

It sounds like the EotE symbol-dice implementation is suitable for casual roleplayers as long as their GM is prepared to do a fair amount of look-up for them. Is that a reasonable assessment?

How do EotE dice compare to v3 dice in terms of providing narrative "levers" for players and GMs to drive the story forward? The skill lists in EotE Beta seemed pretty rigidly codified, which IMO suits WFRP3e's implementation of symbol dice as "action descriptors" better than WFRP3e's generic skill lists. Any innovations in EotE to empower players with more narrative choices, or do the symbol dice still function primarily "action descriptors"?