I had similar feeling. When the core set come out it was a blast, I loved it. But after each other supplement the game become more and more broken. Too many cards, to much space needed to play, some new mechanics ta\hta look like they where made just to be made, many actions that are useless becouse players are roleplaying them and don't need for those cards. The game at this point has to much stuff not used durning a session or even not used by any player or GM.

One of the biggest mistakes wher the Guides and Vaults and the idea of Lite version. The Lite version is one big misunderstanding. I don't know any player that whants to rewrite half on the book of his hero sheet.

I don't know if FFG will make a new edition but the game needs to be fixed. If they don't know how or can't do it then it's time for a new edition.

Looking at DH 2e I see a better game that is far more thought then DH 1e. It has many great, in my opinion, ideas that make players excited durning the game. It give players many option and If FFg ever will do WFRP 4e then let it be a game like DH2e. Everything you need is in one core book. Every game ends at some point so maybe it time for WFRP 3e to end or evolve? Maybe GenCon will bring some anwsers.

Cheers

PS. Don't get me wrong but I really hope to see WFRP evolve to a next edition.

I had similar feeling. When the core set come out it was a blast, I loved it. But after each other supplement the game become more and more broken. Too many cards, to much space needed to play, some new mechanics ta\hta look like they where made just to be made, many actions that are useless becouse players are roleplaying them and don't need for those cards. The game at this point has to much stuff not used durning a session or even not used by any player or GM.

One of the biggest mistakes wher the Guides and Vaults and the idea of Lite version. The Lite version is one big misunderstanding. I don't know any player that whants to rewrite half on the book of his hero sheet.

I don't know if FFG will make a new edition but the game needs to be fixed. If they don't know how or can't do it then it's time for a new edition.

Looking at DH 2e I see a better game that is far more thought then DH 1e. It has many great, in my opinion, ideas that make players excited durning the game. It give players many option and If FFg ever will do WFRP 4e then let it be a game like DH2e. Everything you need is in one core book. Every game ends at some point so maybe it time for WFRP 3e to end or evolve? Maybe GenCon will bring some anwsers.

Cheers

PS. Don't get me wrong but I really hope to see WFRP evolve to a next edition.

You're on an extensive echo/repeat cycle at this point. We get it. Several of us don't agree, but we get it. It's okay for us all to like different things.

Hold on, perhaps this bears examining. If bloat= supplements, then 2nd edition therefore was a fracking nightmare and therefore WFPR3 is reaching that status

so this deems it "welcome to my nightmare" ..and then we must conclude that....

ALICE COOPER LOVES WFRP3!

Hold on, perhaps this bears examining. If bloat= supplements, then 2nd edition therefore was a fracking nightmare and therefore WFPR3 is reaching that status

The component / ability bloat of v3 is a slightly different beast from the fluff bloat of v2. Consider, after the v2 corebook, only a handful of new Talents and rules options were added. The vast majority of v2's pagecount was background. Meanwhile in v3 you need multiple storage boxes for all the new Talents, Spells, Actions etc., and good luck finding the one you're looking for if you don't keep your decks meticulously organised. Just sorting through the corebox decks pushed the limits of many peoples' patience, let alone the fully expanded game.

So the questions remain then: is this an issue with people not being able to sort their stuff or is it an issue with 2e's method of only releasing stuff that is for the GM better than 3e's method of putting out each product for both the player and gm?

Also, is it questioned that after the core set, not another card, chit, or counter should have ever been released because some people have a hard time sorting their stuff?

I respect your opinion as always, but how much trouble are people /really/ having with sorting their stuff?

So the questions remain then: is this an issue with people not being able to sort their stuff or is it an issue with 2e's method of only releasing stuff that is for the GM better than 3e's method of putting out each product for both the player and gm?

Also, is it questioned that after the core set, not another card, chit, or counter should have ever been released because some people have a hard time sorting their stuff?

I respect your opinion as always, but how much trouble are people /really/ having with sorting their stuff?

That would depend on how much people enjoy sorting their stuff. Some people enjoy it, others don't. I certainly don't (as anyone who's been to my apartment will attest) although I do enjoy having my stuff sorted for me.

The v2 career system was a cluttered mess after expansions (even with the Career Compendium). However, v2's basic gameplay rules were fairly self-contained and easy-to-reference (there simply wasn't much crunch outside of combat). And yes, most of the voluminous v2 background was GM-only, which I'm sure impacted sales, although these days the majority of players I know are also GMs, so I dunno how much. Are many non-GMing v3 players spending money on v3 supplements?

Well, I think we could all agree that if they actually released each product with the rules printed on pages as well as on those cards, we would all be much happier. I mean the page counts would be increased by about 4 at most. The player's guide set a decent enough precident with having the special abilities categorized and placed in nice little rows. Having the same thing for everything since (plus the cards) would really have shown that the discoordinated leaders of this project actually had an active and useful interested in it (and this will hopefully be the case in the future).

I really don't know why at some point, after Creatures Guide, they stopped printing creatures action in books? I always used the books like it was first published in the core set. When I played 3e, at my first sessions, for me it was al the fun to have a books in my hands and choose actions form my creatures. I liked the form how it was published from the core set, until when Creatures Guide & Vault come they stopped doing that. I really missed it when I was a GM.

Ok,but comming back to the topic about the good and bad sides of WFRP 3e then I must say that I really liked the idea of career transisions with traits and thet every career has a special ability. Changing careers in 3e was one of the best sides of the game.

I have a wierd feeling that FFG is starting now to hear a little bit more what the fans of all editions have to say. This feeling comes from all those open beta of system. Especialy those who have played 1e, 2e and 3e are a good source becouce they see all the difference, good and bad sides of those games. Maybe this will sound a little naive but I liked that in 1e there where so much characteristics that discribed a players hero. In 2e the talents and abilities system was good, and in 3e the dice mechanics, career tansitions and that every monster attacks a little bit different. From my piont of view the best WFRP would be the one that would take all that stuff and put it in one good system. A system that would require only to have the core rulebook and custom dice mechanics to play. That would have in the bestiary described each creature with it special actions so each of them would attack different. A system that would give players more tools like more characteristics (like it was in 1e or 2e) to build a character so each of them would really be different. Like I don't like the idea that a strong hero has more chance of success in combat, why he should? A weak hero could be a greater fighter then a stong, the strong only hits harder. And this best of all edition of WFRP should have some of the ideas from DH2e like how combat is working.

Will we ever see a superWFRP edition? I don't know but one thing is sure it's hard to get any anwsers from FFG.

Cheers

PS. And not many non-GMing players are spending money on supplements in WFRP 3e in my opinion. Almost non, the ones that buy almost all, if not all, are always the GMs.

Totaly agree, all books/box are for GM, Never for players.

but, I realize not use W3 material as You (and as explain)

when any card (talent, action, ...) is buying by players (création phase or advance one), they Can but an action care, for example, but don't choose which one. For example, Player choose but a new combat card. I have construct deck by thema (close, range, social, rally, spell, specialization, ...).

he draw 3 cards, until 3 playable are draft (playable means legal but too usable, role play, and with sense in Our campaign (can't learn alone a new spell without a teacher for example).

after, he chooses one. And together, we explain how he learn this new capability.

of course, Player can't optimize (that's Great, like in real life) but must hard work/play to imagine how is this character...

in this way, character are less powerfull and more human...

exception: card with advance "advance dodge" for example. In this case, Can be select...

so with this rules, cards are very important, all one are used, each new expansion add new things for Player...

PS: sorry for expression, fault, ... I write on my phone...

Ok, here's a little review of DH 2e beta

http://rpggeek.com/thread/1011729/whats-changed-in-the-2-0-beta

And this is an interesting idea to let players draw and not choose cards at the start, when creating a character.

And during Advance phase too

less strategic, more storytelling

Guys a new version really ? I just spent around 200 € on this game. ... No thx!

Lol @ someone saying that edge of the empire has narrative dice and it doesn't here? Have you even read the rulebook, or even played this game? Cause edge of the empire has the dice from wfrp 3.

If you like the edge of the empire system better, just transform the universe. Hey look a bounty hu... euh euhm a troll slayer!

I hated the edge of the empire system. Not gonna explain again why. 1 word to sum it up: bland.

Not a completly new edition just an upgrade to 3.5. the dice in WFRP are the best part of the game. They are narrative and give players and GM a lot of option how to interpretate the results. the part that some of us have a problem are the cards. The cards should be optional nota must use to enjoy the game. The Lite version did not fixed it and was a big missunderstanding becouse it's unplayable. But this part could be easily fixed by changing recharge tokens into action points or something like it. Maybe something similar to DH 2e fighting mechaics. looking at this that FFG is not reprinting the dice, players toolkit and core set the game will not end but it still may evolve into 3.5.

Let just all of us remeber that those are speculations and we really don't know what is comming.The GenCon 2013 is in few days now so let's hope to get some anwsers right there. If Jay Little was not joking then in near future we should see some new boxes with stuff for Skaven, Elves, Greenskins and Chaos.

Cheers

PS. The Guides where a small mistake becouse they are making players confused how to start playing the game. FFG should make it a little more clear how to start for new players. So maybe they should do a bigginers box with simplified rules and additional rules for player that don't what to use cards. This could work, satisfied all players and would not enforce a 3.5 edition.

I'm happy with the system and so far peeks at other things - this, Star Wars - haven't lured me away.

On bloat, I don't think it's so much the addition of the neat extra things etc. but the point being made about 'organization' and 'accessibility to information'.

The thing we love is the "it's there on the table in front of you" stuff. So having to go, "hmm, where are the rules on mounted combat, on disease recovery.." is awkward. A career-sized card in each case "You're Mounted - blah blah blah", "You're Diseased - blah blah blah" would convey all the key rules with some nice fluff on other side and improve this aspect of game. Of course some folks are doing that on their own.

My own tolerances are doubtless affected by fact I have a dinner-sized game table I can devote to the hobby permanently.

On bloat, I don't think it's so much the addition of the neat extra things etc. but the point being made about 'organization' and 'accessibility to information'.

This in a nutshell. Cards and tokens are easily assimilated in with the rest. It's the little rules that are spread through various books that are my main pet peeve (well, that and the absence of a simple baseline list of default creature actions). A simple rules summary card or two, the same size as the party card, would be a welcome addition to each supplement.

Totaly agree with You cronevald

Playing on a large dining table is one thing, but playing on smaller pub or bar tables is another. Unfortunately the group I play with (we have all playtested and / or written for FFG) agree that not only that the core rules were not playtested beyond Rank 1 but that all the later action cards were not checked to see how they might affect the positives and negatives of earlier action cards.

Maybe there will be something announced at Gencon, let us hope so, but I am not holding my breath. Personally if FFG were to marry the Dark Heresy 2nd Beta systems with the WFRP dice pool, they would have a great system, if not the best. It would also reduce the unit costs for FFG and therefore the players. If FFG are worried about only GM's buying the books beyond the Core, then they need to produce so called fluff books that everybody will want to buy and read. Tilea, Estalia, Araby, Lustria, Norsca, Albion, High Elves, Wood Elves and Dark Elves all have never been covered before by official WFRP products. They can contain some specific rules and careers but can otherwise be rules light. I would want to read all of them without being a GM. There are loads of towns and cities in the Empire that have never been covered before, so why not cover them.

One of the best products produced by the 2nd Edition was the Warhammer Companion, which contained rules for trade and other things, as well as plenty of suitably detailed but also generic enough places and situations that a GM could slightly modify and use when they needed something quick or novel.

I don't understand...

GM have a lot of things, but not players.

in middle of table, we have:

tokens and dices, that's all

in front of players, we have :

character's sheet

talents sloted

and activated cards with token

rest are in hands

I don't understand...

GM have a lot of things, but not players.

in middle of table, we have:

tokens and dices, that's all

in front of players, we have :

character's sheet

talents sloted

and activated cards with token

rest are in hands

When you get to Rank 4 or 5 you can have twenty or more action cards plus more talents than you have slots, plus career ability cards, wound cards etc. You can have them in your hand, but in combat, if you are using tokens, that is impossible. Personally in a long combat I have had well over ten cards with tokens on them. All that takes a lot of space for four or more players. Again that is why we believe the system was never playtested beyond Rank 1.

If we wanted to use pen and paper instead of tokens etc then we would be playing 2nd edition.

Ok, so to resume, per Player in maximum case:

1 character sheet

4 talents sockets (max)

3 past carrier cards

1 wounds pile

2-4 critical wounds (after, death zone )

2-5 action cards with token

for a 10 turn fighting phase, even using only no basic action, You Can play 10 with average 7 tokens each time... Very rare

and i can't imagine 4 heroic characters in same place (Birthday party from an elector count?? )

i don't give enought xp, only 1 to 3 per session, so for example average:

1-3 eye to eye

4-12 gathering

1-3 edge of night

...

as my players say:

-what's your next carrier?

-oh... Dead

-of course, like me, but which type...

and, as GM, I'm "cool"

i don't play "huge chevalery and amazing sorcerer", but Warhammer, an anti-heros game... A Game we play regular people, without destiny, but their live interract with History. We don't play gandalf or aragorn, but pippin or merry... And rarely sam or frodo...

but, even with rank 5, even in amazing (long, maybe burring) combat, each Player have max 10 cards, sometimes Small one... 9 regular Card are an A4 paper format... In traditionnal rpg, how many A4 paper needing per character?

but i agree, lot material needing

skip location cards, effect cards, character miniature..

switwch token with dice

keep wounds, action, talent, diseases, ...

lot, but not too many

I see talk that WFRP needs to be everything to everybody and it's never going to happen (without each individual group houseruling their particular game systems to their needs).

Plenty of solutions have been offered, and shouldn't be dismissed.

BTW, my 6th level wizard for our Pathfinder game leaves me with no fewer than 5 books on the table at any one time. I can't wait to find space at the pub for when I'm epic level.

jh

Ok, so to resume, per Player in maximum case:

1 character sheet

4 talents sockets (max)

3 past carrier cards

1 wounds pile

2-4 critical wounds (after, death zone )

2-5 action cards with token

for a 10 turn fighting phase, even using only no basic action, You Can play 10 with average 7 tokens each time... Very rare

and i can't imagine 4 heroic characters in same place (Birthday party from an elector count?? )

i don't give enought xp, only 1 to 3 per session, so for example average:

1-3 eye to eye

4-12 gathering

1-3 edge of night

...

as my players say:

-what's your next carrier?

-oh... Dead

-of course, like me, but which type...

and, as GM, I'm "cool"

i don't play "huge chevalery and amazing sorcerer", but Warhammer, an anti-heros game... A Game we play regular people, without destiny, but their live interract with History. We don't play gandalf or aragorn, but pippin or merry... And rarely sam or frodo...

but, even with rank 5, even in amazing (long, maybe burring) combat, each Player have max 10 cards, sometimes Small one... 9 regular Card are an A4 paper format... In traditionnal rpg, how many A4 paper needing per character?

but i agree, lot material needing

skip location cards, effect cards, character miniature..

switwch token with dice

keep wounds, action, talent, diseases, ...

lot, but not too many

If we wanted to use A4 paper we would be playing 2nd edition.

As well as all the 3rd edition adventures except the Enemy Within, we have also played Lure of the Lichlord, Rough Night at the Three Feathers and Thousand Thrones using the 3rd edition rules. Even so our GM was only handing out about 50-67% of the XP that FFG or GW recommended.

Some of our combats lasted as long as twenty turns as we went from one fracas to another and it was not unusual to use well over ten cards, which had to be kept track of.

Again I state the rules were not playtested with Rank 4 & 5 characters otherwise they would have done something about the Card bloat problem.

Ragnar:

Did you ask Valvorik what he did for his card bloat problem?

We use a couple house rules for stuff like that that simply allow extra dice instead of having to get a new card,.

Problem solved.

A4 classic rpg paper/ character sheet?

no thanks

it's Just to proove w3 need no more place than other rpg

in case of pub place (but as in club, it isn't the best place to play)

but i Never judge a rpg by his powering high level capability... Especially with a high mortality level... Little unbeliveable still be alive after some adventures... Unbeliveable the amount of xp (to buy cards, carriers completions, but too i suppose caracteristics)

how Can we survive critical, sum of wounds, desaese, insane, ...

high leveling/powering isn't my point of view

Jay, unforturnately it is not just card bloat but how the later cards react with earlier cards. Unfortunately we gave up with WFRP because we felt that with Rank 4 and 5 characters there was too many things that needed to be house ruled. We all agreed that the amount of house rules needed meant that the system was broken. Like the followers of this forum we couldn't always agree what was the best way of solving a rules or card problem. On some problems we each had different ideas on the way to solve a problem. Now we play 40K where the need for house rules is much more minimal. I also play Pathfinder where again the need to house rule seems to be much less needed.

As Jay said, no set of rules will ever be perfect. However we had no desire to be constantly creating new characters for each adventure because the system breaks down by the second career. WFRP needs a new edition because the third edition ,although wonderfully innovative, was highly flawed hence all the house rules.

Also at the end of the day, it will make more financial sense for FFG to produce a new edition than to pursue the flawed financial sense of 3rd edition. I just hope they use Dark Heresy 2nd Edition Beta as a starting point (coupled with the dice pool of course).