I have just bought the new 2nd Edition Beta of Dark Heresy. It seems to have solved many if not most of the problems with the 40K RPG's, and thats not just my opinion.

The annoying part is that Dark Heresy has already got its second edition in the works, and yet WFRP came out before Dark Heresy and perhaps is in even bigger need of a revamp. Also annoying is that all we have heard is that there might be a skaven / greenskin / elf supplement for WFRP coming when they have decided what to do. To my mind what we need is a new look at what was a highly innovative game but which suffered from insufficient playtesting at the development stage.

Sorry folks but WFRP needs a new Beta edition of its own. May we not have to wait too long.

I don't want a new edition - just more supplements. That's where I want FFG's energy spent.

Here, here. In fact, I hate to say...but I've decided to convert my current campaign to 2nd Edition rules. The component bloat and lack of support, plus the seriously in need of an overhaul rules set for this edition...PLUS the fact that it's become hard for my group to meet in person of late (and this edition is nigh impossible to run properly online), has forced my hand.

I'll continue to support Fantasy Flight (love their board games and the new Star Wars rpg line!), and might even steal some ideas from 3rd edition (Party Sheets), but I just can't figure out a way to continue using 3rd edition as is.

IF and WHEN, Fantasy Flight decides to take a long hard look at their lack of support for this game and perhaps releases an open Beta, and/or a new edition, I'll consider coming back...but in the meanwhile it's Black Industries all the way!

Without having to put out an entirely new edition..again..forcing us to buy all this all over ....again... starting over without finishing support work...again..how about if they or we just put out simplification document? I mean, this game is so modular, I refuse to believe that anyone is unable to pluck out the stuff they don't like. As it is apparent that no new "buy all this same stuff all over again" edition is anywhere in sight, perhaps we can work constructively on solving whatever seems to be the issues for some. We've had lengthy discussions on the House Rules forums on just such things Probably the best and worst thing to happen to wfrp3 was that FFG put out yet another incarnation of the George Lucas franchise game. It ramped up interest for people who aren't interested in sci-fi, but still wanted to play whatever this system is, and in the excellent WARHAMMER world. Unfortunately it limited the WFRP releases. Now that we're going to have more releases, we can't complain about "bloat" can we?

I just have to get this off my chest: There is no perfect game system. Putting out another new edition of another "not-ever-perfect' system is not going to solve anything when we can do the same thing by house ruling individual needs.

Sure, there will be a time and a place for another fleecing of gamer's wallets for a new edition of the same old crap, but I don't think that time is appropriate and I would actively lobby against it when it is just to tweak a few rules and make the crazy search for a "perfect game system."

..

Good, hopefully DH2e will be the experimental prototype for WFRP 4e. WFRP has had two turns at being the guinea pig now - time for another line to blaze the trail.

I don't want a new edition - just more supplements. That's where I want FFG's energy spent.

The same here. At over $600 deep I would gladly continue to add to what I already own but will not invest in a wheel reinvention as far as WFRP goes. It runs great, can be houseruled in the few spots that are rough, has a wealth of previous edition material that can easily be converted, can be as portable or as complex as the table desires, and offers years of entertainment to a creative GM and enthusiastic group.

I agree with Jay/Emirikol and generally with "give me more stuff and options for playing this edition" and "find a way to better package it" (e.g., an updated core set that has the better explanations of things from the Player Hardback) rather than "render 20-60% of what I have obsolete".

Lots of folks probably considered the Players Hardback options for streamlined WFRP a bit short of mark. I say that as someone who wasn't really looking for a streamlining.

Other than the odd action card that's wonky, my main beef is just the opposed check rules and those have various houserule options floating around (I'm increasingly going with 'opposing stat minus 2').

Sure, there will be a time and a place for another fleecing of gamer's wallets for a new edition of the same old crap, but I don't think that time is appropriate and I would actively lobby against it when it is just to tweak a few rules and make the crazy search for a "perfect game system."

..And yet Jay, Dark Heresy is younger than 3rd WFRP and FFG are doing exactly that to the 40K gamers. If I were a betting man I would like to bet that FFG will produce a 4th edition done to to whichever of the Star Wars or 2nd edition Dark Heresy sells the better or is better appreciated. If FFG do produce an Elf / Skaven / Greenskin supplement I suspect it will be like Thousand Thrones was for second edition. We may or may not want a new edition but I don't think the financial planning has worked with 3rd edition, too many quality issues to go wrong, So I suspect we will get a 4th Edition when FFG are good and ready whether we like it or not

Is Dark Heresy younger than WFRP3? I thought it was the other way around.

(Put me firmly in the camp of not wanting or thinking we need a new edition of WFRP3 yet. I think this one's still got a lot of play left in it, and I haven't found any major issue with the mechanics or the supplements. I will readily concede that financial concerns will likely be the main reason we do see a new edition in the future, I just hope that day's a long ways off.)

Is Dark Heresy younger than WFRP3? I thought it was the other way around.

(Put me firmly in the camp of not wanting or thinking we need a new edition of WFRP3 yet. I think this one's still got a lot of play left in it, and I haven't found any major issue with the mechanics or the supplements. I will readily concede that financial concerns will likely be the main reason we do see a new edition in the future, I just hope that day's a long ways off.)

You are right. Dark Heresy was published January 2008. WFRP 3rd was published November 2009 (I think).

In my opinion what is needed is a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Beginners Game (like star wars had but ideally with character creation options). This could also act as a simplified version of the game.

However if they did release a new version it would hardly stop people playing the current version (or previous for that matter - I still play 2nd edition from time to time). Just because as game is no longer being published shouldn't stop you playing it! FFG dont come around your house and steal your old books .

Chalk me up to one that would like to see another edition of the game, preferable one that uses the SW Edge of the Empire version of the narrative dice system. I have looked at running a simplified version of WH3e but I really like the way EotE does thgings as compared to WH.

I really understand those that say that they prefer supplements to a new edition. I also spent 600 euros/dollars/gold crowns on the game and had fun playing it. Yet, I don't play it anymore, mainly because me and my players find (too) many flaws in the system, some of them were just insurmountable. Plus really, all the tokens, cards etc, give more trouble than anything else, they make the portability of this game to difficult, no to talk about the playing area you need.

Sooner or later, there will be a 4th edition, in the mean time we play EotE and TOR. Once a "4th edition" of Warhammer is released (or the beta) I will answer the call of the Old World once more.

For the rest of you, enjoy playing Warhammer 3!

Yepes

After seeing this I must awser the call. yes DH is only a year older then WFRP 3e and this is a point. If DH is not that good any more and is not seeling FFG makes a new edition. The same will happen to WFRP if You want it or not. When WFRP 3e came out I was very happy and had a lot of fun with it but after some time it was enought for me. It needs to many space to play, the cards and tokens are a mistake. It to much of then for me and my playing group. Let us be honest if FFG will want to publish a new edition they will do it and nothing will stop them. If they will make a new one I will gladly see it and maybe even try it. But until that time I sold my WFRP 3e collection and play other games.

Cheers

Internet standard Dunning-Kruger effect and speculation aside, I have no doubts that FFG will continue to develop and produce products that positively effect their bottom line. In some cases this will align with our playstyle and financial interests and in some cases it won't. EotE is really great and I can sort of understand the draw or desire to see WH evolve in that regard although personally I'm thrilled with 3e as-is. I am thankful I'm not in the business of designing entertainment products for a market that becomes more segmented and fickle with each passing fiscal year. That's some hardcore Tzeentch action if I've ever seen it.

Happy gaming to all. Even you grumpy folks.

please...

this edition has special "personnality"... it's not another pathfinder like system... YES, univers is cool, great. BUT, RPG are for my own vision an univers AND some adapted rules...

create an heroic fantasy games without a wall of book on game table is so great...

card system is just perfect...

I can't play, no more, with a character sheet and a lot of blank paper just to rewrite all "personnal" rules for my character...

can't no more discuss about a "new rule in a new book about range for spell by night"...

I like RPG...

non , je les aime (I love it in fact!)

I like play... I like be a character...

but don't discuss about rules, fighting rules (if too long or too complex... so don't if it's become a wall between players and theirs characters (of if fight are link between players and characters statistics)...)...

So, of course, you can change... of course, it's an economical strategy...

but, like we say in France "ne jetez pas le bebe avec l'eau du bain" (wordly "don't evacuate baby with water in bath")

some great thing occurs with this edition

-cards (2 faces and rules resume)

-dices

-stress/fatigue vs wound and critical

-stance

-token on cards

-be more visual and reacting than cheeting and "in the shadow part of some notes"

could be great to create a 3.5, not?

PS: have you seen the new Mark Rein Hagen system? with cards and bumps and no sheet (or just a sheet if you're so regular that you can't evolve? RPG are narrative games, not technical one

Ok so they are reprinting dice so what? They are reprinting Toolkit, so what? From december WFRP is not getting any new box expansion. And the thing that JL said that they have so many ideas for the game, with all the respect, I heared in 2010 at GenCon just at the end of the Small But Vicious Seminar.

For a long time there where no reprints and the big winter 2012 sale-out (similar to the situation with WFRP 2e but this could be just an accident) becouse of that people are loosing interest in the game. For me this means that FFG is planing something, maybe a 3.5 or 4e of WFRP, who knows? And I really don't get it why some people are getting from time to time so nervous about it? Fans of WFRP 2e were unhappy when FFG announced 3e, now fans of the 3e are nervouse becouse there is a chance, not officialy confirmed, that FFG would release 3.5e or 4e of WFRP. It always like that. People should be happy that the game is evolves and that there is a chance that every next edition will be better then previous. Looking at that what they are doing now with DH I must say it's looking a lot better, so maybe the next stage of WFRP will bring also some big better changes. The truth is that every WFRP was different and You can choose which one is the best for You. And with so much prevoius materials You can create an endless adventure.

No WFRP had to much luck in publishing for a long time. 1st edition was reprinted 3 times, 2nd edition was published only for 4 years and in 2008 they got only one expansion and in 2009 only two (one was Career Compendium) and the game ended. From 2009 the 3e was out and in those couple of years it got many expansions. Now from my perspective the game is not selling well and what's more the game is loosing against other fantasy RPGs. The licence costs FFG a lot so for me the next step would be to make the game sale. As I see it FFG could not sale-out that what they have in warehouse without the dice so they are reprinting them.

The 3e was not revolutionery, the best part of it where the dice and the biggest mistake - cards that occupy to much table space, the must have tokens, stance pieces.

As I know many fans of the old editions turned away from 3e becouse of too much cards and mechanical ideas that they did not liked. Now i think FFG will what to repair those mistakes. It's a company and needs to make money not only to pay for the licence. I believe that FFG is still working on WFRP but not on 3e or not the way some people would want to see it.

I don't know what FFG will do, what they are planing or what they are working on now but I still think that there is a lot of material published so far that let players have fun for many years.

GenCon2013 is just around the corner it would be a great place to announce something and for fans to ask FFG what they are planing.

Cheers and happy gaming

PS. let us just hope that if FFG would do a next edition of WFRP thet will make a open beta so that amny fans could try it.

PS.PS. And if someone would be wondering I sold-out my WFRP 3e collection last year becouse I stoped playing it.

Well, we played our first game of Dark Heresy Beta last night and it was a blast. Combat particularly was far more tactical using the Action Point and Talent system than the Action Cards of WFRP. It was also satisfyingly brutal. If FFG can marry the Action Point and Talent system to the dice pool then that is the way I hope they go WHEN they produce a 4th edition.

I don't know this systeme (the beta one), but to be sure:

- RPG are not, never, noway, so are not tactical game!!!! it's a narrative game! if I need some tactical things, I play boardgame, wargame, miniatures games or rpg on video game (that are not rpg for my part)

- I can't imagine that a system could be "brutal" just by using or not action cards or action point... maybe by wound system (and so opportunity to accept many hits before dying???

- main part about a PRG must be universe and narrative part. A great RPG is one with system and rules give capability to be our characters. Not one with a good fighting system... and absolutly not the one with a simulationist system...

RPG are not WoW, please... so maybe when we play in terminator armour, but not when we play with brigandine!

my character is not sum of bonus, not a level, not a class... he's what i explain with descriptions and many details I give

my pleasure is not to locate wounds on my ennemy... it's to find who is this ennemy, how I can proove his guilty and survive the confrontation... in play time, fight part is probably less than 20%, maybe average 15%... come one, write book and system for the 85%!!!!

stop thinking with your blaster/axe, even Conan has a story, a background...

Outside of aesthetics I don't really see a difference between the DH/EotE talents written on a chart in the book/character sheet, and talents on a card located in your play area, but whatever...that horse is dead if y'all want to beat it some more. The action point system is kinda cool. I've played Shadowrun before, though So far, It's an interesting beta overall.

I don't know this systeme (the beta one), but to be sure:

- RPG are not, never, noway, so are not tactical game!!!! it's a narrative game! if I need some tactical things, I play boardgame, wargame, miniatures games or rpg on video game (that are not rpg for my part)

- I can't imagine that a system could be "brutal" just by using or not action cards or action point... maybe by wound system (and so opportunity to accept many hits before dying???

- main part about a PRG must be universe and narrative part. A great RPG is one with system and rules give capability to be our characters. Not one with a good fighting system... and absolutly not the one with a simulationist system...

RPG are not WoW, please... so maybe when we play in terminator armour, but not when we play with brigandine!

my character is not sum of bonus, not a level, not a class... he's what i explain with descriptions and many details I give

my pleasure is not to locate wounds on my ennemy... it's to find who is this ennemy, how I can proove his guilty and survive the confrontation... in play time, fight part is probably less than 20%, maybe average 15%... come one, write book and system for the 85%!!!!

stop thinking with your blaster/axe, even Conan has a story, a background...

You missed my point. I completely agree with most of your points about the roleplaying aspect, but one of the big positives / negatives of WFRP 3rd were the Action Cards in combat. The negative obviously being the space needed for them, particularly in a crowded pub. They were hardly used outside combat because most people I suspect roleplayed the other cards. There are a lot of people who like tactical combat, and it does not have to mean miniatures and mats either. Also Full Plate in WFRP is the same as Terminatopr Armour in 40K. Try not to be so dismissive, both groups I play with are big on backgrounds, roleplaying and TACTICAL COMBAT.

JA_42 - I like your gaming philosophy!
I also do not want a new version at this time. I don't want a less complex version or one that is more focussed on descriptive and exacting combat (seriously - there are games like Pathfinder if that is your thing). I like and use talent cards, the party card, and range counters and the whole toolbox and it feel it works really well. If I had any advice for FFG (not that they listen) it would be to offer more support to those of us who run demo games at Cons (I am sure I have been responsible for a few new hobbyists) and revise the core set to include the divine and magic supplements and re-release with an actual marketing strategy.

@Keeop : difference are not on rules point, because of course, it's same... but on how it's used...

When talent/action/... are in a book, players must rewrite (partially? without some details?...) and always any new book can explain any opposite effect.

game text on cards are still same... and if an error occurs, a reprint fixed the problem

when talent are in a book, new talents in a new book can't match (randomize and drawn) older table. with cards, just shuffle!

@ragnar63 : of course I'm over the point but just to said that fighting rules are part of global rules, as character creation, social interactions, general system... in fact, after all this point

I agree don't played in fully pub, that true... and don't need, I prefere more quiet location for RPG (not for boardgame, quick game, ...). Even in quiet place, materiel are too large (in W3), true. I never used character miniature, place location, ... and in fact, let in my home all cards not used by my players (so 7 of 8 magical colleges, 8 gods, not using bestials cards -I choose the 20 needing for this adventures, that all-, ...)

Another point about not turn to a warhammer4: in foreign languages (minimum french, of course), they are very late (actually 3 main books and 3 main box, player add on, GM add on, gathering torm and in some weeks winds of magic). I don't care, because buy american issue, but... could be dangerous to loose all foreign players...

all this discutions (very interesting points, each one) built my own vision: warhammer4 is a bad idea, BUT 3,5 could be great... a new book, with change needing (to be more nervous, less token )?

not?

@ Johann Rowlocks

THANKS A LOT

yes, a 3,5 edition, more complete (for new players/GM), maybe less confused (about tokens, place location, ...)

"My mates and I attempted to play Enemy Within in the front row of a Blur concert the other night and the system is obviously broken. There's simply no portability. If it hadn't been for those pesky cards and fatigue tokens we could have finally taken care of this whole Black Cowl business. I'm selling all of this stuff at an incredible loss immediately and picking up Dungeon World. Death to 3E!" -- LilSigmar82

I love the concept of this system. But I think the absence of the game's designer (Jay Little) once the system was released really hurt it. If you have a Wizard AND a Priest in your group, you have NO SPACE for anyone else, including a GM to play. This game system go incredibly bloated pretty much after the second supplement. I personally loved the system at the beginning. The core boxed set made me feel like blowin' my mind up. Sadly, THIS is where I think the cards couple have stopped. Right there. Books and a few item and location cards after that, MAAAAYBE one or two action cards/spells after that would have been a far better approach. It's a gorgeous game. I agree that it doesn't need a new edition. It's just not going to happen. I think the answer is to limit the action cards. I really don't know, I'm just thinking out loud. Gamers are getting older and GM's of our generation are finding less and less time to game. Our group loved the system, but time is a hot commodity. We have now switched over to a house ruled Warhammer Quest campaign.