Hi all !

We just discovered with a bunch of players that the term "defend" referring to a player is not defined in the Rulebook or the FAQ (if we are not mistaken !). This may have some importance for example with cards like Orell the Eagle or Wars are won with quills.

So, what does defend means ?

1) Declare defenders during the "declare defenders" framework window

2) Declare defenders anytime (eg. with naval characters)

3) Have any character participate as a defender

4) anything else.

Please answer with arguments, and if possible quotes of Rulebook or FAQ

Sorry but it is not clear what the question means

During challenges there are two sides - the attacking side and the defending side

Those characters knelt by the defending side (or in support, or via Naval) are considered to be defending and thus are defenders

Characters not invovled in the challenge aren't defenders or attacker

Anything else?

Hi all !

We just discovered with a bunch of players that the term "defend" referring to a player is not defined in the Rulebook or the FAQ (if we are not mistaken !). This may have some importance for example with cards like Orell the Eagle or Wars are won with quills.

So, what does defend means ?

1) Declare defenders during the "declare defenders" framework window

2) Declare defenders anytime (eg. with naval characters)

3) Have any character participate as a defender

4) anything else.

Please answer with arguments, and if possible quotes of Rulebook or FAQ

There's a distinction between declaring defenders and being a defender. You become a defender EITHER by being declared a defender (which can happen through the naval enhancement or the declare defenders framework) OR having an effect put you into the challenge as a defender (or put you in the challenge and make you a defender, eg Margaery Tyrell). Examples of the alternative include; "The Wall", "Catelyn Stark" and "Horseback Archers" (which all specify that the characters become defenders).

There are certain important rules that affect one and not the other; Desolate Passage specifically affects your ability to Declare defenders, but not your ability to have multiple defenders participate. Stealth (by convention, not strict wording of the rules) stops a character from becoming a defender ( regardless of how ) but doesn't stop a character from BEING a defender. If that character is already participating, it would prevent them from being declared again (if they were removed and had a way to get back in, e.g. naval).

You may have to be more specific if you want a more specific answer.

What we want to know is what exactly Orell's abilty means in terms of declaring naval defenders and sneaking defenders in.

While Orell the Eagle is attacking,opponents must declare at least 2 defenders in order to defend the challenge.

We face the same interrogation with Wars are won with quills :

After you win an challenge by 4 or more total STR,choose a challenge type. Until the end of the phase,the losing opponent cannot attack or defend during that challenge type.

In both cases, the definition of "defend" is crucial to know what the attacked player may or may not do.

As far as I know, in France we played as if defend was exactly as declare defenders (meaning you can jump Catelyn LoW into the challenge, for example). But we may be wrong.

We have considered three possible definitions, those I listed in my first post.

Let's consider them in the situation with Orell attacking:

1) Declare defenders during the "declare defenders" framework window

In this case, I must declare two defenders if I want to declare defenders in the classical way. But if I don't, I may defend with a naval enhanced char, even alone.

2) Declare defenders anytime (eg. with naval characters)

In this case, I must declare two defenders if I want to declare defenders in the classical way. Plus, if I want to put a naval defender in the challenge, I must have declared two defenders before, as I can't put two naval chars as a defender at the same time.

Anyway, I may still jump Catelyn or bring the Great Jon into the challenge.

3) Have any character participate as a defender

Here, whatever the way I want to put a char in the challenge as a defender, I must first declare 2 defenders during the "declare defenders" framework window (if I'm not mistaken it's the only one time when you can declare two or more defenders). So if you don't declare 2 defenders, no naval, no Cat, no horseback archers. Unopposed, point blank.

I hope the question is clear now. I should have been straight to the point from the beginning

Given the precedent set by stealth "cannot defend", cannot defend seems to mean cannot become a participant on the defending side. As such, Wars are won with quills would prevent Greatjon Umber, Catelyn, Horseback Archers (although the fact that it says "that player may not defend" confuses the issue a bit, so I'm not 100% comfortable whether that changes the meaning to "that player cannot declare defenders", or simply implies that that passives, like Walder, could still act normally). I favour the interpretation that this works like stealth.

Orell the Eagle has two potential interpretations; these were discussed pretty extensively a few months back along the same time as Naval Enhancements were causing some timing troubles, and you can find them in the Quill & Tankard Regulars here , and rebutted here . There's a relevant quote from Damon answering a similar situation (Lead by Example), and I've appended it below.

You must declare two attackers/defenders in order to declare any additional attackers/defenders. Once that player restriction has been met there is no more restriction. So a player would need to declare 2 attackers/defenders in the standard attack declare window in order to then jump another attacker or defender into the challenge by way of the naval challenge.

Given the precedent set by stealth "cannot defend", cannot defend seems to mean cannot become a participant on the defending side. As such, Wars are won with quills would prevent Greatjon Umber, Catelyn, Horseback Archers (although the fact that it says "that player may not defend" confuses the issue a bit, so I'm not 100% comfortable whether that changes the meaning to "that player cannot declare defenders", or simply implies that that passives, like Walder, could still act normally). I favour the interpretation that this works like stealth.

Orell the Eagle has two potential interpretations; these were discussed pretty extensively a few months back along the same time as Naval Enhancements were causing some timing troubles, and you can find them in the Quill & Tankard Regulars here , and rebutted here . There's a relevant quote from Damon answering a similar situation (Lead by Example), and I've appended it below.

You must declare two attackers/defenders in order to declare any additional attackers/defenders. Once that player restriction has been met there is no more restriction. So a player would need to declare 2 attackers/defenders in the standard attack declare window in order to then jump another attacker or defender into the challenge by way of the naval challenge.

I agree with the Stealth interpretation, but this probably needs to be rules linked. There is clearly no way to answer the question by reading the rules.

The question I sent to FFG:

My opponent is attacking with Orell the Eagle. Am I allowed to make characters (like either version of Greatjon Umber) participate as defenders without declaring them?

Orell the Eagle
While Orell the Eagle is attacking, opponents must declare at least 2 defenders in order to defend the challenge.

The answer from Damon:

As long as they can be made to participate without using an effect or mechanic that designates "declare" then yes.