I understand that Theon triggers his abiltity at the start of dominance

If an unique characer is discarded, he retuns to play and is counted in dominance

Do other responses get triggered at the same time (I assume they do)

Specifically Support of Salcliffe

Response: After 1 or more cards are discarded from an opponent's deck, stand attached character.

So if an unique character is discarded, Theon would enter play and I would also stand any characters with SoS attached - all those characters would count their strength for domiance

Side question - Moyley Crewman

His text implements a constant effect to discard one extra card

Any effect that discards 1 or more cards from an opponent's deck discards an additional card

Does this constant effect apply to cards out of play, such as Theon

I understand that Theon triggers his abiltity at the start of dominance

If an unique characer is discarded, he retuns to play and is counted in dominance

Do other responses get triggered at the same time (I assume they do)

Specifically Support of Salcliffe

Response: After 1 or more cards are discarded from an opponent's deck, stand attached character.

So if an unique character is discarded, Theon would enter play and I would also stand any characters with SoS attached - all those characters would count their strength for domiance

Side question - Moyley Crewman

His text implements a constant effect to discard one extra card

Any effect that discards 1 or more cards from an opponent's deck discards an additional card

Does this constant effect apply to cards out of play, such as Theon

The timing in question is

Dominance Phase Begins

(Shadows Shadows etc)

Passives (Such as Theon's Discard)

Responses (Such as Theon coming into play, SoS standing characters)

Then there is no "action window" (no opportunity to, say, play a Distinct Mastery) before Dominance is counted.

In effect, theon and any characters stood by SoS would count their strength.

As for Motley crewman, it's important to note that he's not affecting Theon, he's affecting "Theon's effect" - as such, there's no question of whether it's in play or not - Theon's effect will discard an additional card.

As for Motley crewman, it's important to note that he's not affecting Theon, he's affecting "Theon's effect" - as such, there's no question of whether it's in play or not - Theon's effect will discard an additional card.

Untrue. Cards only interact with other cards (and their effects) that are in play, unless they specifically say something else. Motley Crewman does not interact with cards (or their effects) that are not in play when they initiate, so it will not enhance Theon's discard.

This is no different than, say, the Night's Watch agendas not giving icons to Night's Watch characters while they are in your dead or discard pile.

As for Motley crewman, it's important to note that he's not affecting Theon, he's affecting "Theon's effect" - as such, there's no question of whether it's in play or not - Theon's effect will discard an additional card.

Untrue. Cards only interact with other cards (and their effects) that are in play, unless they specifically say something else. Motley Crewman does not interact with cards (or their effects) that are not in play when they initiate, so it will not enhance Theon's discard.

This is no different than, say, the Night's Watch agendas not giving icons to Night's Watch characters while they are in your dead or discard pile.

Mind elaborating? Why would the effect have to come from a card in play? Is there any other example/precedent for this? Motley is a (conditional) constant, which modifies every effect which discards one or more cards from someone's deck - why does the source of the effect matter at that point? If I trigger a raiding vessel (+2 Str, and lasting effect that if I win the challenge, I discard a card from my opponent's deck), and it gets discarded from play prior to the resolution of the challenge, would the motley only cause the effect to discard a second card because it was triggered from play?

To me, that's somewhat like saying "Alannys Greyjoy" can't affect Meera's ability, or Theon's 'return from dead pile' ability, because they're triggered from an out of play area.

Night's Watch Agendas affect *cards*, not effects, so that's not a parallel that seems relevant to me.

The FAQ tells us that cards are only actionable while they are in play unless something specifically says otherwise.

I'm not sure why you are separating Theon's effect from his card so completely. Motley Crewman does not wait for the effect to be initiated, so that it is "off card" somehow, before modifying the effect. It modifies the effect as it is initiated. That is, the sequence doesn't go "initiate effect, then modify it;" it goes "modify effect, then initiate it." Clearly, Theon's effect is still a part of the card while it is initiating, if for no other reason than the fact that the card must be in the dead pile to be initiated in the first place.

In short, since Motley Crewman modifies the effect before it is initiated, and it has no text specifying that it works with things that are not in play, it can't be added into anything that is initiated from out-of-play.

Alannys would be canceling Meera after the effect was initiated, so the situation is different. Once something is initiated, it is effectively "in play" and actionable. Same with the "delayed initiation" lasting effect of Raiding Vessel. The difference is that Motley Crewman needs to modify the effect before it initiates, not after.

This confuses me - I seem to have it ingrained that the effect and the card are separate entities. But on the assumption you're right (a safe assumption), what about the inverse scenario where a Raiding Vessel is triggered, but before the discard resolves a Motley Crewman comes into play or is unblanked by the removal of, say, Milk of the Poppy. Motley Crewman was not affecting the initiation of the Raiding Vessel's ability, so despite being present at its resolution he would not affect it?

I can see that being the case, but it would also imply that Motley Crewman modifies not only abilities that *do* discard cards, but all those that might (Deepwood Motte, Raiding Vessel), and that confuses me as well.

This confuses me - I seem to have it ingrained that the effect and the card are separate entities.

You're thinking of the "scope of immunity" entry that says effects "originating from" (ie, triggered from) immune cards are considered "peripheral entities" (like tokens, attachments, etc.) and can be canceled by things the card itself is immune to. So, an effect on an "immune to character abilities" character could be canceled by Alannys.

This doesn't conflict with what I'm saying about Motley Crewman because according to the "scope of immunity" entry, such "originating from" effects don't become peripheral until they are triggered.

As for the rest of it, Motley Crewman would modify the effect when the discard is initiated. The Motley Crewman that enters play between Training Vessel being initiated and the discard effect itself being initiated would still apply to the discard effect. The "peripheral entity" of the lasting effect doesn't actually initiate to discard anything until you win the challenge. Once the lasting effect exists, it is "in play" and actionable, no matter what happens to the Training Vessel card itself. You look for the modification to the discard when the discard itself initiates (after you win the challenge), not when the lasting effect is created.

What makes you say Motley Crewman modifies the effect before it is initiated, when it modifies only its resolution?

Are events in play before they are triggered? If not, would motley crewman not modify an event?

What makes you say Motley Crewman modifies the effect before it is initiated, when it modifies only its resolution?

It's not a replacement effect (no "instead"). The constant effect is therefore added into and modifies the effect as part of checking the play restrictions on initiation.

Are events in play before they are triggered? If not, would motley crewman not modify an event?

Events interact with cards in-play by their very nature - otherwise, you couldn't choose in-play targets when you trigger them. They do enter a moribund state between being played and hitting the discard pile. Based on these facts, I think it safe to say that Motley Crewman will interact with the initiation of an event.

Since I'm still not convinced, I've sent the question to FFG.

No problem. For all I know, FFG will say "any effect that..." is specific enough to implicitly include effects on cards that are not in play.

The question I sent to FFG:

I have Motley Crewman (Illyrio's Gift F7) in play and Theon Greyjoy (Where Loyalty Lies F69). At the beginning of dominance, how many cards do my opponents discard?

Motley Crewman

Any effect that discards 1 or more cards from an opponent's deck discards an additional card.

Theon Greyjoy

While Theon Greyjoy is in your dead pile, he gains: 'At the beginning of the dominance phase, discard the top card of each opponent's deck.

Response: After a unique character is discarded from the top of an opponent's deck, put Theon Greyjoy into play from your dead pile.'

The answer from Damon:

Each opponent discards an additional card for a total of two.

Looks like effects initiated out of play are affected as well.

The question I sent to FFG:

I have Motley Crewman (Illyrio's Gift F7) in play and Theon Greyjoy (Where Loyalty Lies F69). At the beginning of dominance, how many cards do my opponents discard?

Motley Crewman

Any effect that discards 1 or more cards from an opponent's deck discards an additional card.

Theon Greyjoy

While Theon Greyjoy is in your dead pile, he gains: 'At the beginning of the dominance phase, discard the top card of each opponent's deck.

Response: After a unique character is discarded from the top of an opponent's deck, put Theon Greyjoy into play from your dead pile.'

The answer from Damon:

Each opponent discards an additional card for a total of two.

Looks like effects initiated out of play are affected as well.

I feel much better about that.

Like I said, FFG could see "any effect" as sufficient specification in this context to refer to out-of-play cards as well. Good to clear that up.