1,I have Drogon in play,then I use Blood Magic Ritual to put Black Hatchling into play,what happen?

2,I have Drogon in play,then I use Blood Magic Ritual to put another Drogon into play(because of opponent's Aegon's Hill),what happen?

3,I have Daenerys in play,then I use Blood Magic Ritual to put another Daenerys into play,what happen,will Blood Magic Ritual be discarded?

thanks.

Most of that i wont answer as i'm not 100% sure of the answer. However, you can't use BMR to even get back Drogon anymore as of the FAQ that dropped yesterday. You can no longer get No Attachment cards back with BMR anymore. The other two you will have to get someone else to answer.

Excellent questions!

Karma is wrong here, I'm afraid - you can still use BMR to get a no-attachment character back, but when BMR fails to attach, that character will die.

I'm going to assume these are all variants of the same question (and this is "black hatchling" from QoD).

In all cases the answer should be the same, as soon as the card comes into play, it becomes a duplicate. Blood Magic Ritual attempts to attach, but cannot legally attach to a duplicate and therefore is discarded from play. It attempts to kill "that character", and returns a null value; the character it brought into play doesn't exist anymore.

Hmm, as far as I understand it, the Hatchling attaching as a duplicate happens passively, as would the kill effect of the BMR being discarded. If this is the case, they are conflicting passives and their order would be determined by the First Player, in effect deciding whether it attaches as a duplicate or is killed again.

As for bringing a second copy of Daenerys out of the dead pile (a rare state to begin with), there is never a time where a character enters play as, in this case, the second copy is immediately attached as a duplicate and the Blood Magic Ritual has nothing to attach to (or to kill after it is discarded, as "that character" doesn't exist). The distinction here is that the hatchlings are all distinct characters that attach themselves as duplicates through their effects, meaning they must first enter play.

J_Roel - with that logic, would the opposite also be true? If you had a Black Hatchling (QoD) in play and decided to use BMR to try and resurrect Drogon, it would be an FP decision as to whether Black Hatchling attached first before BMR's kill effect? And, if you happen to be FP, could you then choose the Hatchling's passive to fire first and then discard it to save Drogon from BMR's kill effect?

J_Roel - with that logic, would the opposite also be true? If you had a Black Hatchling (QoD) in play and decided to use BMR to try and resurrect Drogon, it would be an FP decision as to whether Black Hatchling attached first before BMR's kill effect? And, if you happen to be FP, could you then choose the Hatchling's passive to fire first and then discard it to save Drogon from BMR's kill effect?

I see nothing wrong with that logic.

Hmm, as far as I understand it, the Hatchling attaching as a duplicate happens passively, as would the kill effect of the BMR being discarded. If this is the case, they are conflicting passives and their order would be determined by the First Player, in effect deciding whether it attaches as a duplicate or is killed again.

J_Roel is right here (I answered too quickly, and treated the hatchling like any other duplicate). The hatchling becomes a duplicate via a passive (not identical to the other situations). The passive in question here would be "if it is discarded from play, kill that character", in which case J_Roel is right - the first player would decide whether Black Hatchling's passive or BMR happens first.

The answer then, as you state Vaapad, works the other way; bring back Drogon and if you're the first player, you'll be able to dupe him prior to the kill effect from BMR.

It's actually doulos2k here... I'll have to find a new avatar. :-)

It's actually doulos2k here... I'll have to find a new avatar. :-)

****. Well at least you know why I screwed that one up.

Excellent questions!

Karma is wrong here, I'm afraid - you can still use BMR to get a no-attachment character back, but when BMR fails to attach, that character will die.

I'm going to assume these are all variants of the same question (and this is "black hatchling" from QoD).

In all cases the answer should be the same, as soon as the card comes into play, it becomes a duplicate. Blood Magic Ritual attempts to attach, but cannot legally attach to a duplicate and therefore is discarded from play. It attempts to kill "that character", and returns a null value; the character it brought into play doesn't exist anymore.

Hey, i'm still right. It still ends up in a net profit of nothing really. Which is what i meant by saying that. Sure, the character would come in play but it would die as soon as it does. Which nets in you not really being able to do it. At least thats what i was trying to say. I just think of everything in shortcuts and didn't fully explain what i meant. XD

I think we all knew what you were getting at - but the distinction was important considering the scenario I proposed with Bringing Drogon into play with BMR while the Black Hatchling (QoD) is in play (and you're FP). So, the technicality is valid... granted for a VERY narrow situation, but valid nonetheless.

You can also bring a dragon back into play and simply save it from the kill effect, Strong Belwas and Favoured By the Warrior both fitting the bill quite nicely, so the distinction is very important.

You can also bring a dragon back into play and simply save it from the kill effect, Strong Belwas and Favoured By the Warrior both fitting the bill quite nicely, so the distinction is very important.

very valid point

How did I get dragged into this

Hmm, as far as I understand it, the Hatchling attaching as a duplicate happens passively, as would the kill effect of the BMR being discarded. If this is the case, they are conflicting passives and their order would be determined by the First Player, in effect deciding whether it attaches as a duplicate or is killed again.

J_Roel is right here (I answered too quickly, and treated the hatchling like any other duplicate). The hatchling becomes a duplicate via a passive (not identical to the other situations). The passive in question here would be "if it is discarded from play, kill that character", in which case J_Roel is right - the first player would decide whether Black Hatchling's passive or BMR happens first.

The answer then, as you state Vaapad, works the other way; bring back Drogon and if you're the first player, you'll be able to dupe him prior to the kill effect from BMR.

Hate to burst the bubble as the logic is sound, but there is no such thing as a rule that causes characters entering play to become duplicates. It is simply player convention. I would additionally make the assumption that it is a replacement effect and Ktom can come here and mention what it is as he's really the authority on this not-a-rule ruling. If it is actually a replacement effect, it will not be determinable by the first player.

I also disagree about the Black Hatchling scenario. It doesn't look like a passive to me. It doesn't say "after you gain control/play/put-into-play Drogon" and could just as easily be a constant and not a passive. As a constant, it would resolve immediately (priority over passives in the stack). This is really a weird one though as we have no standard templating for constants vs. passives.

Ktom! Ktom! Ktom!

Hate to burst the bubble as the logic is sound, but there is no such thing as a rule that causes characters entering play to become duplicates. It is simply player convention. I would additionally make the assumption that it is a replacement effect and Ktom can come here and mention what it is as he's really the authority on this not-a-rule ruling. If it is actually a replacement effect, it will not be determinable by the first player.

No one is disagreeing with that replacement - nor claiming it's determinable by the first player (For Drogon with Drogon in play, or Dany with Dany in play). We're claiming that the Black Hatchling dupe effect is passive (which as you point out, may not be), and if it is that pulling either drogon or black hatchling into play with BMR while the other is in play will result in a conflict of passives, resolved by the first player.

You guys had all the scenarios worked out correctly.

The ruling has always beed (and it is a ruling) that when a dupe is either played or put into play, it enters play directly as a dupe. It is never in play as a character, etc. So, if you use Blood Magic Ritual to put a dupe into play (by choosing a second copy of a unique character you already have in play), the chosen card will enter play as a dupe - before the attachment fails to attach, activating the "kill if" effect of BMR. So because of the timing in that situation, there is nothing to decide.

On the Hatchling situation, keep in mind that BMR isn't "after BMR leaves play or is discarded," either. It is " if BMR leaves play or is discarded...," the same as the Hatchlings text of " if you control the adult version...". You can quibble about whether the Hatchling is passive or not, but whatever your answer is, the unattached-BMR-kill is going to be the same thing. So if they become valid at the same time, they will conflict and the first player will get to decide the order. That means the "First player gets to decide whether the hatchling becomes a dupe before BMR kills, or BMR kills before the hatchling becomes a dupe" conclusion is correct, too.

You guys had all the scenarios worked out correctly.

The ruling has always beed (and it is a ruling) that when a dupe is either played or put into play, it enters play directly as a dupe. It is never in play as a character, etc. So, if you use Blood Magic Ritual to put a dupe into play (by choosing a second copy of a unique character you already have in play), the chosen card will enter play as a dupe - before the attachment fails to attach, activating the "kill if" effect of BMR. So because of the timing in that situation, there is nothing to decide.

On the Hatchling situation, keep in mind that BMR isn't "after BMR leaves play or is discarded," either. It is " if BMR leaves play or is discarded...," the same as the Hatchlings text of " if you control the adult version...". You can quibble about whether the Hatchling is passive or not, but whatever your answer is, the unattached-BMR-kill is going to be the same thing. So if they become valid at the same time, they will conflict and the first player will get to decide the order. That means the "First player gets to decide whether the hatchling becomes a dupe before BMR kills, or BMR kills before the hatchling becomes a dupe" conclusion is correct, too.

Actually it makes a huge difference. We have NO rules on how conflicting constants work.

Is there such a thing as a conflicting constant?

Is there such a thing as a conflicting constant?

Sure. Multiple applicable claim replacement effects (eg, you win your Shield Islands epic challenge with Pyat Pree). Those aren't passive, but we know the first player gets to choose the order in which they apply.

J_Roel said:

Right, you asked two different questions and got two different (not conflicting, mind you) answers. Does the attachment enter play when it's response is cancelled? No, it is not considered to have entered play. Can you trigger passives and responses to the card leaving shadows? Sure, why not? It has left shadows, as is evident by the fact that it was in shadows and no longer is.

So the templating "comes out of shadows" is being defined as "When a card is chosen for the Shadows framework action as the card to be brought into play from the Shadows play area"?

From the Shadow Rules, I'd say that is the case. The card does not have to enter play to be considered successfully "came out from the Shadows". Please refer to the following quote from the Shadow Rule :

At the beginning of the any phase, a card that is in Shadows can come out of Shadows and into play

which seems to imply that coming out of the Shadows and coming into play are separate things.

It is interesting to note that because Blood Magic Ritual never actually entered play, it does not leave play either (ref FAQ 4.5). But because of FAQ v4.1 erratum the condition for killing the character is that the attachment is discarded OR leaves play, so the character would be killed