Having read more of the system, another one to add is the new fatigue system. Make different levels of fatigue matter more and removes the weird feeling in DH1 when the first fatigue was a big deal but the rest wasn't until you passed out.

Good job.

I enjoy roles, but a few of them seem a bit too shoehorned towards a specific role. Seekers are obviously Arbitrators for example. I do like the options and flexibility, I just think they could be a bit more subtle and flexible.

I like the idea of the Wounds system and I do see where they're coming from with it, but golly gee does it need explaining better. The first thing almost every person I've spoken to has said is "How do I generate wounds?"

I enjoy roles, but a few of them seem a bit too shoehorned towards a specific role. Seekers are obviously Arbitrators for example. I do like the options and flexibility, I just think they could be a bit more subtle and flexible.

I like the idea of the Wounds system and I do see where they're coming from with it, but golly gee does it need explaining better. The first thing almost every person I've spoken to has said is "How do I generate wounds?"

Yeah, I agree that the reuse of the word wounds for a different concept can be a little confusing to existing players. Maybe if they went for something like Injuries instead it would be clearer to talk about.

Haven't played yet as i'm at the learning stage and creating multiple characters as an aid to learn/run trough all the rules.

Got to say, for me the following so far are HUGE positives:

Homeworld + background + role

Big gripe with 1st Ed was that i'd have a character concept but the mechanics would never quite fit the idea. So far this three-level interaction works excellently. Really good.

Also 'letting the dice decide' with random chargen produces some really interesting and consistent characters too. Thumbs up.

It's be good to have every homeworld type represented though, but it looks simple enough to bolt on added options.

Simplified, reduced and streamlined 'skills'. Excellent. In many ways these actually look more like 'areas of competency' rather than skills, which is a good thing.

As others have stated I am Overall VERY disappointed with this but it does have some positives:

Character creation: Very flexible and much more conducive to bringing characters from the VERY divergent backgrounds of the imperium!

Skills: Cleaning up and defining the various skills and subskills was much needed and looks pretty well done!

No hit point wound system is very intriguing but needs A LOT of work

The Entire Narrative tools section is very welcome and very well done! I especially like the Influence/subtlety rules!

(I also got a giggle from "the game of looking for some thrones" comment )

My stance is this; the framework of this system is brilliant . I love the character creation, I love the skills, I love the wounds, I love the combat. At least at a very shallow, framework level.

The issue comes when you get into specifics. A lot of the wound entries are flawed, gear needs a total overhaul, some flaws with how cumulative wounds work need to be ironed out, etc.

Basically, framework? Brilliant. Specifics? They need major work.

I have to disagree with the general assessment that Char Gen is great now. It's just missing 1 or 2 more levels to make it truly interesting. Looking at both RT and BC, what made your character unique wasn't the homeworld, or background, or career/archetype, it was the little things in the middle, the Lure of the Void/Trials and Tribulations that made 1 Voidborn Voidmaster pilot different from another Voidborn Voidmaster pilot, both in the fluff and mechanically. It would also allow for characters with a larger breadth of skills; you would get skills and talents from your past career, but also from your own, personal experience. A skittish, underhiver black market trader and a Metaliccan duelist are still currently the same character (Hive World/Outcast/Desperado), but add 1 or 2 more layers of differences, and they can be truly distinctive.

I have to disagree with the general assessment that Char Gen is great now. It's just missing 1 or 2 more levels to make it truly interesting. Looking at both RT and BC, what made your character unique wasn't the homeworld, or background, or career/archetype, it was the little things in the middle, the Lure of the Void/Trials and Tribulations that made 1 Voidborn Voidmaster pilot different from another Voidborn Voidmaster pilot, both in the fluff and mechanically. It would also allow for characters with a larger breadth of skills; you would get skills and talents from your past career, but also from your own, personal experience. A skittish, underhiver black market trader and a Metaliccan duelist are still currently the same character (Hive World/Outcast/Desperado), but add 1 or 2 more layers of differences, and they can be truly distinctive.

While I understand your point (My favorite setting is still RT by far!) remember that DH characters are essentially at the beginning of their careers whereas RT characters are generally further along. I don't like that the characteristic rolls bumped up to RT lvls though (It's funny that this feels like petty griping compared to everything else that's wrong!)

While I understand your point (My favorite setting is still RT by far!) remember that DH characters are essentially at the beginning of their careers whereas RT characters are generally further along. I don't like that the characteristic rolls bumped up to RT lvls though (It's funny that this feels like petty griping compared to everything else that's wrong!)

Still, both Trials and Travails and Lure of the Void where things that where supposed to explain why your character came about being a high officer on a city sized spacecraft. The same thing can be said here; the Inquisition supposedly specially singles out individuals for service, it doesn't just pick at random, and currently, there is nothing that makes the individuals different or background option explaining their recruitment, something I feel would add a lot.

While I understand your point (My favorite setting is still RT by far!) remember that DH characters are essentially at the beginning of their careers whereas RT characters are generally further along. I don't like that the characteristic rolls bumped up to RT lvls though (It's funny that this feels like petty griping compared to everything else that's wrong!)

Still, both Trials and Travails and Lure of the Void where things that where supposed to explain why your character came about being a high officer on a city sized spacecraft. The same thing can be said here; the Inquisition supposedly specially singles out individuals for service, it doesn't just pick at random, and currently, there is nothing that makes the individuals different or background option explaining their recruitment, something I feel would add a lot.

Conversely; (While I don't personally agree with them) many players felt the origins path wedged the characters too much into a defined set of narratives and reduced player's flexibility so you could argue either way here.Still, Since their are aleady a bunch of charts in DH2 I suppose a set of optional background charts for inspiration might not be a bad thing.

If people think RT system was too constrained, I suggest the follow fix: Let players burn a fate point to ignore any restrictions on the next 'jump'.

I really do think the optimal character creation system would be an expanded RT, taking inspiration from burning wheel. But that may just be me....

I agree with the nice things said about the RT creation system.

I'm going to try to playtest this Friday, and make my players make characters (usually we use pregens for this sort of thing). Spares me having to learn all the little details on my lonesome. The nice thing about 1e is that it wasn't overwhelming - your homeworld and career pretty much dictated what you could do.

This offers more customization without too much thrown at new players all at once. It might represent a perfect middle ground, moreso once GMs start houseruling.

Having read the forums for a few days now, and having just bought the Beta today, I have to say so far I'm very pleased with it. The major caveat being that I'm only just diving into the armory now, so I really haven't sunk my teeth into combat mechanics yet.

But I absolutely love the overall feeling that Dark Heresy should be about investigation, not being the best in combat. If you want to be super awesome at combat, either (a) play Deathwatch, or (b) wait for 2nd edition's version of Ascension. I personally dig the trade offs between being a good investigator and, for example, walking around strapped with heavy weapons (-10 to subtlety...to say the least!). I haven't read all the subtlety mechanics, but there seem to be a lot of ways to remain subtle if you want, and a lot of ways to blow your cover if you decide to go in bristling with weapons. Even making something like interrogation easier if more people join in (and have the proper talent) is brilliant.

Maybe I'll be singing a different tune when I get into combat and wounds, but from what I've read so far it seems to encourage the idea that combat should be avoided when at all possible. Could be because my last Dark Heresy campaign (which was awesome, just to be clear) had two battle psykers, a crimson guard, and a guardsman. Lots of combat, and lots of killing our way out of very improbably situations. I for one look forward to dreading combat and avoiding it. Let the Imperial Guard and the Astartes take care of the heavy lifting.

If people think RT system was too constrained, I suggest the follow fix: Let players burn a fate point to ignore any restrictions on the next 'jump'.

I really do think the optimal character creation system would be an expanded RT, taking inspiration from burning wheel. But that may just be me....

I though that making it wide open was pretty much standard, no matter what the book said; in all the RT games I've played, it's always been completely free choices, as long as the background you have for it makes sense. In any case, what I was proposing was something akin to the same type of choices, but pretty much as a free selection to explain how you went from a poor Adepta wageslave to a bubling acolyte facing death or worse on a daily basis.

Having read the new rulebook a little more, the Characteristic, Skill and Talent buys look streamlined and fun. This eliminates the need for Elite advances that fitted the character, but weren't available on their tree.

I was happy with the old system for years, but having played many, many games I'm ready for something new. There are only so many permutations of the old classes I can come up with!

I don't like such completely open systems, makes balancing harder(not that supreme balance is needed, but some degree of it is). I also think completely open systems are harder for beginners because there's too much choice, and if you add the fact that you have to justify your traversals in universe, it can easily be very daunting for someone new to the system and the setting. Set paths fix both problems, and its not like GM's can't houserule it anyway if they really feel like it. But it's way harder to houserule in restrictions than out.

Assuming they don't include stat modifiers for secondary options (which IMO, was a bad decision, especially for the Motivations and Failings in BC), then it is much easier to make them more or less balanced, simply by making them tied to skills, talents or unique abilities that are more or less useful for any character, and preferably outside of combat (enough of the system is already tied to that). Sure, they might be better for some, but you'll lose most of the stat cherrypicking.

As for the value of open vs. constrained systems, I've always found that it's better to have starting players need a bit more time to make their choices than it is to limit them to a select few options when others are available. Moreover, if there is no in-universe reason for the restriction, it just feels arbitrary; the RT system is the best example of this; why shouldn't you have Hive World scavengers? Or (ironically) someone with a High Vendetta motivated by vengeance?

I just really like this game.

Wounds system is great fun, provided you can organize yourself alright.

Character Creation is simple, yet detailed and thought provoking, forcing you to make interesting choices about your character.

Psychic Powers are really handled correctly, for once.

A great section on Investigation, Social Interactions, and Game Mastering.

Talent Trees provide you with a feeling of freedom in character growth while simplifying your choices.

Rules for playing an Inquisitor, as well as a Talent Tree for being an Inquisitor? Great. All Inquisitor game? Even better.

Action points provide a slightly different way to think about Combat while still being familiar?

I really don't understand why people don't like this game, apart from the armory section.

I just really like this game.

Wounds system is great fun, provided you can organize yourself alright.

Character Creation is simple, yet detailed and thought provoking, forcing you to make interesting choices about your character.

Psychic Powers are really handled correctly, for once.

A great section on Investigation, Social Interactions, and Game Mastering.

Talent Trees provide you with a feeling of freedom in character growth while simplifying your choices.

Rules for playing an Inquisitor, as well as a Talent Tree for being an Inquisitor? Great. All Inquisitor game? Even better.

Action points provide a slightly different way to think about Combat while still being familiar?

I really don't understand why people don't like this game, apart from the armory section.

I'm glad they've finally sorted out the Psychic Power system too.

I liked the DH1 system, but thought it was a little too harsh on doing big powers (too high a chance of phenomena). Rogue Trader onwards went too far the other way I felt, with the powers too easy to get off and too many talents that meant pushing rarely meant anything.

DH2 seems to have got the balance right between these too camps.

I just really like this game.

Wounds system is great fun, provided you can organize yourself alright.

Character Creation is simple, yet detailed and thought provoking, forcing you to make interesting choices about your character.

Psychic Powers are really handled correctly, for once.

A great section on Investigation, Social Interactions, and Game Mastering.

Talent Trees provide you with a feeling of freedom in character growth while simplifying your choices.

Rules for playing an Inquisitor, as well as a Talent Tree for being an Inquisitor? Great. All Inquisitor game? Even better.

Action points provide a slightly different way to think about Combat while still being familiar?

I really don't understand why people don't like this game, apart from the armory section.

Although a lot of the system is functional, and much of the non-combat stuff is great, there are some issues. I'll try to give you the short of it, based on my opinion and what I could gather from that of others.

The wound system scales and works poorly, but that's mostly the combat system in general. The actual critical hit like effects work decently for NPC's but, over time, PC's risk accumulating a lot of them, and having to check one of 9 tables for every individual hit eats up a lot of time compared to just damage.

The character generation system is missing one or two extra layers to add to character depth, and to avoid having identical characters. See RT Lure of the Void/Trials and Travails for inspiration.

The talent tree system is too restrictive, and invariably leads to cookie-cutter builds because you have no choice; the talents are already sorted in a tier system by cost, so an open tier system would work, or a stacked pool system if you want to limit things somewhat. Both those options allow for a lot more options while also make it much easier to introduce new talents without reworking the entire tree, and the later still restricts selection based at least somewhat on previous selections.

The power system works well, but again, fixed talent tree vs stacked pool.

The action point system is good in theory, but the issues with the armory and combat system in general reflect poorly on it.

The talent tree system is not restrictive enough, but still forces you to take a bunch of useless talents.

I just really like this game.

Wounds system is great fun, provided you can organize yourself alright.

Character Creation is simple, yet detailed and thought provoking, forcing you to make interesting choices about your character.

Psychic Powers are really handled correctly, for once.

A great section on Investigation, Social Interactions, and Game Mastering.

Talent Trees provide you with a feeling of freedom in character growth while simplifying your choices.

Rules for playing an Inquisitor, as well as a Talent Tree for being an Inquisitor? Great. All Inquisitor game? Even better.

Action points provide a slightly different way to think about Combat while still being familiar?

I really don't understand why people don't like this game, apart from the armory section.

Although a lot of the system is functional, and much of the non-combat stuff is great, there are some issues. I'll try to give you the short of it, based on my opinion and what I could gather from that of others.

The wound system scales and works poorly, but that's mostly the combat system in general. The actual critical hit like effects work decently for NPC's but, over time, PC's risk accumulating a lot of them, and having to check one of 9 tables for every individual hit eats up a lot of time compared to just damage.

The character generation system is missing one or two extra layers to add to character depth, and to avoid having identical characters. See RT Lure of the Void/Trials and Travails for inspiration.

The talent tree system is too restrictive, and invariably leads to cookie-cutter builds because you have no choice; the talents are already sorted in a tier system by cost, so an open tier system would work, or a stacked pool system if you want to limit things somewhat. Both those options allow for a lot more options while also make it much easier to introduce new talents without reworking the entire tree, and the later still restricts selection based at least somewhat on previous selections.

The power system works well, but again, fixed talent tree vs stacked pool.

The action point system is good in theory, but the issues with the armory and combat system in general reflect poorly on it.

Avoiding having identical characters? Have you played the original DH? I've had so many Feral Worlder Assassins that I have to trick myself into thinking they're all secretly the same character in order to not strangle the player for playing a min-maxed close combat character with a violent personality.

These are great for diversity, while providing simple enough rules for a Core Rulebook to create diverse enough characters. Albeit, if they really wanted to give us the reins, they'd tell us how they did it all and give us mechanics for creating our own Home Worlds, Backgrounds, etc.

I remember reading a post where the OP recommended printing out the effects on the table, laminating them, and handing them out to players when they received that Wound Effect roll. This is something that actually excites me, as a GM, so I have to say that I'm biased. Also, it appears that this is one of the main things being workshopped, at the moment.

It's cookie cutter enough so that you know what a high-leveled melee character will have, so that you can easily create one and integrate it into your game. It makes Talents something that you really pay attention to and understand, as a GM, at least. My real excitement will come when they release the Melee Talent Tree #2, expanding on everything done on the previous tree. Though, yes, they could be more restrictive and implement more necessary Talents within a particular tree.

The use of a tree greatly simplifies a pool, even more so in Psychic Powers, where it's necessary to have a mechanic which demonstrates how your characters can further manipulate their surroundings, growing increasingly stronger, in a meaningful way, with each purchase. Also, the first Power gives you everything you need to be able to use the "Minor Power" of that discipline, making progression feel like it should- starting out with a weak power and progressing.

The action point system is entirely removed from the armory, even if they function together. When they update the armory in order to reflect a more realistic standpoint, the Action Point system will be able to function the same as it did previously. The armory uses the Action Point system and will conform around it.

Once again, I think people may be expecting too much out of a Core Rulebook. I'm not saying that this game is perfect, but it's pretty awesome for a Beta. Although that is certainly a personal opinion.

Uh...what? Expecting too much out of a Core rule book?

Oh, no, you're absolutely correct.

A complete set of seamlessly integrated rules is too much to ask for. Too much.

Give us crap. Just put some more skulls on it and we'll never notice.

I thought this was the positive thread. I really liked to read about what people liked, even if it was just in this one thread. Virtually every other thread is negative so if you please, keep this one positive. Thanks!

Plus, a lot of aimless vitriol without an actual point or argument does nothing but make you look petulant. It's not telling FFG what to fix, it's not giving us a point to discuss. It's just being whiny.